Played a game verses my mates Cult list both just using starter sets. Mission was catch the kami. Most of the games I have played have been against the Prefecture and have little experience aginst these guys.
Basically I got slaughtered. Main issues were the marionette and the spell "look into the void". His good dice helped with one charge by a Kairai taking out Master Ekusa. Rolled a 6 got his trigger and that was it, yikes seemed pretty easy.
Regarding "look into the void" apparently the only way to counter the spell (apart from rolling high) is to look away by rotating your models 180 to face away. There doesn't seem to be any benefit from cover when facing this. It made it then hard for me to charge as you need LOS. It also meant we getting caught from behind a lot when I was charged.
The Marionette controlled a model and effectively took it out of the game very easily and was threatening to do it again (with 6 Ki). Are we playing it right that the player can create one with heaps of Ki which then becomes its wounds? It tries to take a model over with most of my models having ki of 2 against his of 6 so me losing everytime. So if it was created with ki of 6 when he tries to take my model over (with ki of 2) it would be an oppossed ki test of him rolling 6 dice agianst my 2
Am I missing something here?
That is how the marionette works but remember that's two turns of kato not doing anything much and leaves the kairai open to being killed and un-risible.
"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."
Hi- remember the Mannequin also loses a control counter each time the controled model is activated, and each end turn, this means even if the controlled model is exhausted you will lose 1 counter the turn it is controlled, and between 2/3 each following turn dependeing on wether it does complex or simple actions.
Some hints for you from my experience-
Ekusa's strong mind and three Ki means he does well in any opposed tests, and if you use contemplation on Kato, the marionette can't activate either.
Atsuko's 'Hope' can be cast at any point effectively gvivng the marionettes target an exra dice in the form of a re-roll.
Marionette moves 3", and is exhausted on creation, unless he creates it on an objective just move away from it, Monks are super quick with some ki management.
When Kato is looking stocked up on Ki start threatening to off his Kairai with your monks, if he is putting Ki into 'rise again' then he isn't using it to make marionettes.
'Look into the Void' is very powerful, although she has to spend a couple of turns recharging between each blast, again use Ekusa's contemplation on her when she is looking fully charged to delay it, or else try and block in her LOS with expendable models/scenery.
Whenever possible use the Monk's triggers to throw Kairai into Ikimjo, even if she isn't too badly hurt, standing up will tire her, giving you a little more breathing space.
Also if you read- "Bodyguard (X/Y): This model may switch positions with another model of the category X, if within Y", and if this model is not in BtB with an enemy model, has actions remaining, and X is the target of an opponent’s action (i.e. this Trait takes effect while the model possessing it is non-active)." it does work against 'look into the void' though it will normally just mean sacrificing a peasant to save a monk.
overall try playing a non-kami related scenario and you'll find it changes very quickly, with Kairai leeching Ki to give themsleves souls or Kato /Ikmjo having to really get up front to turn statues etc, they simply won't have time or Ki to create a million marionettes, use look into the void etc.
Your flexibility (and ability to throw Ki where it's needed with Ekusa) should allow you to outmaneuver the Cult most games, but you MUST focus on the objectives!
hope this is helpful, stick with it, the temple look like a lot of fun!
Never tell me the odds: Han Solo;)
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6 dices against 2 are not garantied win. If he doenst roll a lot of 6es you can still win or get low SLs at least. And reduce the controlled timer.
Something i learned when you are trying to look behind a Kitsunes mirror with a 1 KI model. Your get 1 dices against 4, not a great chance, but when you roll high and she lower with all the dices you catch her tail...
oh and just remembered- Riku is going to solve most marionette related issues with his walls of water:) you should have a good chance of throwing the little wooden git all over the place:)
Never tell me the odds: Han Solo;)
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Just keep a peasant near you monks, facing the other way, counters LITV and marrionette.
Water wall infront of marrionette, you can push it back over a turns worth of movement.
CoE Kato so no marrionette activations, keep that 4 rice ki battery girl near by for 2 a turn.
Sent Ktisune after Kato, fast/killy and rolls 4 ki dice if targeted by marrionette.
Temple have such a ridiculous tool-kit that it should be fairly easy.
Edit: Also those silly shisa, stupid amount of activations mean you can run around him and kill kato and/or Ikiryo. Bonus - immune to both LITV ,marrionette and fear!
just a clarification from master T please- Can you really 'bodyguard' and then say they are immune to LITV because they can't see her? seems a little bit like letter of the rules over common sense here?
Never tell me the odds: Han Solo;)
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A peasant knocking a monk ou of the way if some evil geisha is staring at them is no less common sense than jumping in front of bullets. :)
Maybe, but an un-coordinated peasant with his eyes closed lurching several meters to save a monk from an evil geisha the peasant is deliberately ignoring and cant see is more likely to knock the monk out than save the day:)
Never tell me the odds: Han Solo;)
(avatar from http://www.sillof.com/C-samuraiwars.htm)
When a model switches positions through the bodyguard trait it becomes the target of the action. So no you cant swap in the peasant and turn him/her backwards.
When Ikiryo targets the model (in this case a monk) she needs to check if she can target the model ie both draw LoS to each other. Now that she can LitV on the model she declares how much Ki she'll spend. Now the Temple player can declare that the Peasant is using bodyguard and checks to see if its in range etc. Swap the peasant and monk and resolve LitV.
Again i accept its not clear, but with your help guys we are clarifying issues like this and streamlining the rules.
"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."
Thanks master T, perhsps worth a diagram or two in the rulebook, sorry to ask it in the wrong thread:)
Never tell me the odds: Han Solo;)
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In terms of clarifying timings like this, I notice that M.T, stated before that he didn't want to complicate the rules too much with this kind of timing.
What occurs to me is that simplicity is good for new people, but doesn't help resolve these issues. Maybe the solution is to do both?
The rules of the game could simply say "free action: do this" while the FAQ doccument could break down each action into steps, phases and oppertunities, along with listing things like priority.
I never understood why companies shy away from using their FAQs to hold the complex workings of the game for those of us who like knowing exactly how to resolve situations.
A new player needs to know: Ikiryo targets somoene who can see her. Geisha-lazers fire. Pew pew,
A veteran needs to know: Irikyo declares an action, chooses a target, checks its legality, spends her chi and then passes priority. Her opponent responds with a bodyguard substituting the target, before passing priority back. Irikyo passes priority again. Because both players have passed priority, the ability procedes to the dice rolling step. And so on and so forth.
------
Anyway, back on topic. Most of what Jammybee said still stands, and even without tricks to fizzle eyebeams, feeding in a cheap mook to save a monk from Geisha related head explosion is not a bad plan at all.
Obvious other things to do is to take the Fu dogs, who can REALLY put the hurt on. I havn't played against them yet, but with their armor piercing and ability to buy dozens of attacks per turn, you can butcher the cult. Stun Kato so he can't raise, and then smash through any zombies in your way. Given the speed you could build up in one turn, you could probably even avoid the zombies and just rush the geisha and puppetmaster and bring them down before he can do a thing about it.
As for the breakdown. Yes we should add something to the website in terms of explaining the breakdown and i would imagine it'll appear quite soon. In the Rule Book there will be step by step breakdowns, diagrams, photos and FAQ's answered.
Back on topic; The Shisa engine isnt as all powerful and being able to carry it out is quite difficult. Also i would check that you are playing the Shisa correctly as although good with their 3CP, +1 Str and Sharp. When active they lose the Tough (as its a Passive Trait) and are Slow, meaning although they can hit hard they are suseptable to a the roll of a 1 on your defence die.
On the topic of activating them X times. Its also very hard to set it up so that they move around your force and kill Kato, Ikiyro or any other backfield model.
A. the Shisa need to not be engaged at all.
B. You need 6 Ki to move them into position the position of rested still without them being engaged.
C. Also remember they cant run because of Slow.
Cult players; Just use Araka to break them, or Nezumi to eat the Aiko battery.
"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."
Kato has to be within 8 inches of the zombies, so he's not exactly "back field". That said he is likely to be out of range for turn 1 kills. Turn 2 however would be another matter.
The strength I see though if you assume a 4 foot wide board, and objectives in the middle (because its a simple example) you have 24" of space between Shisa and Zombie because they're slow and will need to be forward.
If you use the non dog figures as batteries, you can grab about 17 Ki on turn 1. which is 5 uses of their feat, ie. 7 activations. Thats a movement of up to 35 inches, with up to 5 attacks. Knock off an attack and you can very likely stun Kato to prevent raising the zombies. Between the fact that you'll still be taking activations after the cult player is long exhausted and the extra dice with armor piercing, and the safety of attacking slow opponents, you can probably run down every zombie on turn 1. That is brutal. I'm not saying you can hit it every single time, luck will conspire against you, but I do think its way too much speed for a single model. Ekusa really combos out with the doggies.
I'm not sure nezumi is fast enough to catch up and deal with a bodyguarded monk before the damage has been done. Its a cheap tactic to battery, but it seems very expediant and effective, plus you still have plenty of oomph left if something does manage to bring down the dogs.
It looks by your statement that you are not playing a few things right.
A. The game is played on a 24" square board.
B. The Shisa are Slow and so I don't understand the "safety of attacking Slow models"?
C. You mention extra dice from armour piercing?
D. The Shisa can only have 8 Ki on them at a time and can only leech 3".
E. You mention "stun" kato, how? How do you understand this preventing him Rising kairai?
"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."
Ok then, so:
A. We've been playing it on a 4'x4' board, as per the starter rules. If its the case that we should be on a 2'x2', then I return to my statement that Kato cannot be in a safe position from a model with 35" of move on turn 1.
B. If both Shisa and zombie are slow, and shisa are attacking, do they not resolve their attack first?
C. Sorry, I was unclear. The extra dice the dog has over a zombie, and the fact that it also has the armor piercing rules.
D. When Ekusa activates he can throw 8 ki onto the dog stood next to him for the second dog to use. Same for his second activation. So if the dog begins near the monks, it can pull 8, then recieve a further 16 in later turns, giving 24 chi total for it to play with during the turn.
E. By stun I mean contemplate existance. (We affectionately call it stunlocking). It blocks the use of feats, meaning no raising zombies. Correct?
Do correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. Maybe we misinterpreted something?
I think you should try and pull off this combo with the Temple and i think you will see it doesnt really work.
Yes in the ideal situation you could get a fair amount of Ki onto a Shisa in a turn but at 35 Rice you are limited to the number of models and in the first turn the amount of Ki. Plus if you are doing this you are doing next to nothing else.
The Shisa only have 3CP and if they are attacking no natural armour/toughness i think the best thing to do is play it out a few times from different angles against different factions.
"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."
Thanks Master T, sorry to say the same thing as you in a much longer way, but Im trying to get this straight in my head so I worked it out whilst bored- apologies for the wall of text:)
now- with 35 rice you can have Aiko, Kitsune, Ekusa and the Shisa (I know you said bodyguard but he wouldn’t generate enough Ki to do what you suggest, and you would be under Rice) and the activations must happen is a very specific order due to the need for models to focus if you are going to get to the levels of Ki you suggest.
For reference- Shisa (A) is the moving one, (B) is the battery, and the opposing force has 5 models, common for a starter set.
First activation- Shisa (A) deployed within 3 of all other models leeches 3 Ki from Aiko, 3 from Kitsune, and 2 From Ekusa, (giving it 8) it also moves forward 5” (tired)
enemy activation 1
Second activation- Aiko focus to 3 Ki (exhausted)
enemy activation 2
Third activation- Kitsune focus to 3 Ki (exhausted)
enemy activation 3
Fourth activation- Shisa (A) activates, moves 5” (exhausted)
enemy activation 4
Fifth activation- Shisa (A) uses feat (tired), moves 5” now has 5 Ki (exhausted)
enemy activation 5
Sixth activation- Shisa (A) uses feat (tired), moves 5” now has 2 Ki (exhausted)
enemy activation 6
Seventh activation- Ekusa focus to 4 Ki, then leeches all Kitsune and Aiko’s Ki to 10 Ki, channels 6 to shisa (B) which now has 8 Ki, Ekusa has 4 and is (exhausted)
enemy activation 7
Eight Activation- Shisa (A) uses feat, (tired) attacks a enemy now has 5 Ki (exhausted)
enemy activation 8
Ninth Activation- Shisa (B) uses feat (tired), leeches 4 Ki from Ekusa to 6 Ki, may also move up to 5” (exhausted)
enemy activation 9
Tenth activation- Shisa (A) uses feat (tired) attacks enemy, now has 3 Ki (exhausted)
enemy activation 10
Eleventh activation- Shisa (A) uses feat (tired) attacks enemy, now has 0 Ki (exhausted)
(theoretically ther's a pass in there for Rokan too, and you could save the last couple of feats/actions until after your opponent has finished their total)
During this round Shisa (A) will indeed have been able to make 7 activations, (the eighth must be made by Shisa (B) as I believe only active models may leech) but to do this they are sacrificing every other action in this round, the only movement made other than the Shisa is Ekusa single ‘turtle’ move when he activates, in addition the actions the Ro-kan player loses through Focusing to generate this ridiculous amount of Ki means that actually as long as the opponent doesn’t do any complex actions they are still making around the same number of activations in a turn, so they aren’t massively out-manoeuvring them really. This all assumes that at no point does a Shisa become engaged by an enemy when they aren’t exhausted. Plus- there aren’t any objectives happening here...
Having said that, obviously at larger Rice games they will start getting more silly, with very few limits to what they can do in a turn. possible house rules could be-
-Perhaps they should have a maximum distance apart as you suggest, this could calm the situation down a little?
-A lower max Ki, as this would increase the maths issues faced by anyone trying to use this battery technique?
-Remove the icon that allows Shisa to cast this feat in combat, making it more expensive? (or actually say this feat cannot be cast if engaged, like contemplation?)
-make the feat more expensive each time it is used in a single turn (ie Ki- OOO+(x) with (x) being the number of times this feat has previously been used this turn)
-Maybe a new trait:
Stoneheart- This model may only leech Ki, never receive it through channelling.
-as for waiting till the end of the action phase so all your opponents models are exhausted, I do'nt think that will be too easy, it could be stopped by the simple sentence in the rulebook 'once all models on both sides are exhausted move immediately to the end phase'
It’s good that you’ve pointed this out to the developers, but I think we as players have to accept that when any game still has less than a dozen models per faction, and no core rulebook, balance is always going to be a little off for a while, just wait until the Prefectures dragon starts eating big stone dogs for roughage!
As a last point- If you think something is super over powered, ask your opponent in a friendly way not to use those models or do whatever crazy thing doesn’t make sense- we already play with set limits that literally ONLY the ‘summoned’ Bakemono can be brought into play, all others stay dead when they die, as we find Bakemono swarming can bog games down time-wise, I’m the Wave player and I don’t mind at all:)
Never tell me the odds: Han Solo;)
(avatar from http://www.sillof.com/C-samuraiwars.htm)
Well illustrated Greeny. as i have said we do strirve to make things balanced and fair, but on occasion a model might be slightly under/over pointed. However Theorising about a model effectiveness is oftend a poor indicator of what it can do in a game. As Greeny demostrates the Temple doesnt have any more activations and his force is all still within 3" of the board edge with one model which whilst tough is still on is own in the middle of the enemy force in a list with very little back up. This is not saying you couldnt do it just that the cost would outweigh the gain. also in Greenies math Ekusa doesnt CoE Kato (assuming it would succeed and he could draw LoS whilst only moving 3").
Greeny.
I like the suggestion of the turn ending the moment all models are tired, except the Shisa's feat is free and so you could simply do it during the last models activation.
Jswiers
I think these discussions are very useful as game developers and at a point in time when we are streamlining the rules to make the game better for all involved,
"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."
The issue I see GCTMT, is when you look at your pieces in a way more akin to say... chess. More to the point, in a manner to minimise risk.
While 90% of your force will be doing nothing, not even moving, they are pretty safe on their board edge. The dogs however will hopefully (most likely...) have killed their own points back, if not more, by having moved more than any single model can do in a turn.
You are only risking the dog. The opponent is risking several models to fight the dog. Every activation the dog takes in the stead of a monk is an activation where the monk takes no risk, but the dog takes a lower risk (by being tough, and by attempting to cruise in and savage something he can handle.
I'm not saying it is the be all and end all of the game, just that being able to condence your entire lists actions into one model is fairly powerful, and something that Cult specificly will struggle to deal with, given they have a couple of models with a bullseye on their heads. (The ones who make ki)
Also the game objetive come into play when all but one model ara hanging at world ends and a mighty lonely dog is trying to keep the rest of the other gang from taking all the objetives...
the dog can go fast and all pumped out but once he his in combat his bark is stronger than is bite ... and will die a horrible death if it is not suported
I have played 3 gmaes with them so far . in one Hiro choped his head(blody triger) on another a karai and geisha did a fast work on the stone ... and the last one a bunch of bakemono decided to see if they could domesticate one ... they did they just have to hold out till waka show up and smash the hell out of him . I grant you the dog hold out and kill many and caused many wounds... but by the time i managed to move out my hanging about rest of the gang the game objective were out of my reach so I lost the 3 games
You have trouble getting to objectives on a 24" tabletop? I'm surprised.
Anyway, I'm sure some armies will do better than others against the dogs. I just cannot imagine zombies putting up such a fight. I'd definately be trying to cruise missile down Kato in games against cult though.
Incidently, Waka made it to combat? Locally our bakemono player has ditched his oni because they are too easy to exhaust out with contemplation. Its interesting to hear other people talk about their games. We seem to have some very different experiences to you guys.
Well, If Ekusa is focusing and being a Ki control freak he won't be contemplating anyone wich mean dog wont be running ahead that much.... right?
Bushido is a scenario driven game. Table is small and getting on to a particular objective is not dificult at all ,but putting all efforts on a single miniature darting leave the oponent his hand free to get to objectives first and protect them better