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Ret-MattT
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About the Satoshi strategy; I did some quick math for the interested. If you want to run a Move 4 Ashigaru T1 and be in Order range you can start 5" away from him. As you need about 10.5" to reach an Idol this is within reach.

Personally I´d not use the Vial as it´s very specific in use. For a singular model with boosted move strategy Istunagi + Shisai is my idéa. You need 2 Ki from T1 to be able to reach M7. (Focus on Shisai-> Channel 4 to Itsunagi -> Itsunagi boosts movement by +3 and runs 10.5") This is of course only for the Idols or Keii. In Ryodo a Temple Bushi or Chiyo would reach the objective which would be a much less constrained strategy. I simply like to emulate Ret-LEJs idéa of also walking up and holding a spot. Something which Satoshi does well.

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Ret-orko
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The Vial will net you +2 inches, +3 if you run. An Elexir of Vigor will net you +4 inchhes, +6 if you run as well as the possibillity to do an action instead of the move, like a scenarioaction or a ki feat. So if you don´t have a specific plan for the fly effect or the elexir already taken I really don´t see why you would want the Vial.

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Ereshkigal
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Greeny wrote:

I think the thread has lost it's way a little, and the entrenched 'i hate shisai' position isn't really about list building, ill try my game Thursday (currently Ito all fighty vs the list I posted above) and write a report, and we can continue the shisai query there perhaps? Though I'm not sure either side seems willing to concede anything at this point;p back to list building- vial of raidens breath, who would you put it on?

You are mistaken about me, i want the shisai to work so badly, so i'm really open to any hope :)

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Meavar
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I feel that most people who like the shisai are the ones who are used to playing factions which are rubbish melee (cult/wave)
I like high melee stats as much as the next person but for 10 rice being able to have 50% chance to let someone lose an action on the right moment or in total give someone a -3 on melee can be totally worth it sure it will not always work, and she is expensive and usually needs the help of someone else. But even for just 15 points (her + a cheap model) the thing is half the rounds it would be a bad investment to have a 10 ki model have 50% to obliterate someones ki, or make them stunned and loose an action. But in nearly every game there is also those one or 2 moments when it can actually make you win the whole game. Zuuba charging your line, sorry maybe next round when all my warriors can swarm him and he does not have those 2 bakemono for support anymore.
Gok getting closer to your main warriors, wait a moment so I obliterate the stupid rats before you stun half my list.
Hanso near an objective, wait let me stun you and assault you in my turn so you can't use cleave and suddenly you can't do anything and have -4 in melee (-1 stun -1 outnumber -1 exhausted -1 surprised since now he is looking away from your melee model?)
Stopping that peski crossbowmen from reloading just by waisting one of his actions makes him even more useless then you are for another round (and with the stunned token and possible exhausted you can possibly kill him in 1 round melee if you are close enough)

Sure not everything will always work, but with ki feats that is often the case but stealing an important action or giving someone a stunned marker or stealing ki at just the right time can be devastating.
Expecially since more and more people realise that just fighting is not everything and thus list become more dependent on support, then a cheap support stop can spell doom for a more expensive model.
 Often lining up some good attacks is what it is about and she is great at disrupting those setups.
 

Meavar

Greeny
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Good points there orko, I'll usually have vigour on satoshi though so I'm looking for ways to speed up the rest of my list, how about thoughts on the shrine terrain piece?

Ret-A_Palmer
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The shrine area is pretty decent, but with terrain being placed first and then you have to find somewhere to squeeze the shrine in, certain terrain setups can make it really difficult to put in a good spot.  However, if you can put it near an objective, good times my friend, good times.

Basically: it's good, but unreliable/avoidable depending on terrain and what you're fighting against (lots of kairai?  Oh well then...).

It always goes to tiebreakers.

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Deadjester
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Eh,not a fan of the shrine.  The one point of damage from the Poison is only good in certain situations.  A Samurai with full health for example would still use the Ki feat without a second thought because their armor will most likely give them the protection they need.  A model with Toughness would just point and laugh at the silly idol.

At best if you could position it where you think your opponent will place their softer support models it may work out well...if nothing else you would make them wary of entering that area.  Against tougher models the only way you're going to get much use out of it is by wearing the opponent down.

Overall not terrible...but not sure if I would personally use it much.  I feel spending the two rice on Dark Secrets is a much more reliable and versatile option.

 

The Dice Gods are a cruel and fickle pantheon.

If Bushido were to be summed up in one word I would use "intense". You know a game is good when the tension runs so high you feel like you're about to have a heart attack.

Deadjester
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As for the vial (had to hunt down your list) I'm looking at it and it is the "fly" special rule that I think makes it worth taking the most.

I'm thinking one of your combat models...have them fly behind enemy lines and go hunting support models.  In the case of your list I'm thinking either a Bushi or Takeji.

 

The Dice Gods are a cruel and fickle pantheon.

If Bushido were to be summed up in one word I would use "intense". You know a game is good when the tension runs so high you feel like you're about to have a heart attack.

Greeny
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my thoughts match yours on the shrine, it would hlp stack effects if you were thorwing a lot of poison(1) out perhaps, but at the moment it's 2 rice i can spend elsewhere, Takeji with fly sounds interesting though:)

Ret-Ruro
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Damn this thread became lively. As to not steer away the conversation from the actual topic of lists here is a list I tried today which certainly worked better then expected though I will still propably fiddle around a lot with it. (It also happens to have Ayako who a lot of people find underwhelming wink)

  • Kenzo Ito - 10
  • Kaihime Ito -9
  • Ayako Ito - 10
  • Hitoshi - 5
  • Akimoto - 5
  • T. Bushi x 2 - 10
  • Orochi's Gaze - 1

As you see it's a 50 Rice list, which only uses Ayako, without Sakura and Kazuhiko. I played against my friends Ryu(the scenario was Ninki) and while he had a slight disadvantage not knowing how like 50% of my forces function it was still a pretty fun game.

I would have liked Ayako to be 9 rice and she mostly did 2 things:channel, and stun. And oh boy did the stun mess a lot of things up for him especially when a stunned model got into a fight with Hitoshi too. While BoO is pretty avarage in a 35 rice list I tried to do something nasty here and it worked out quite well.

I used up Orochi's Gaze around turn 2-3. And it was pretty disgusting how everything started to just melt away under the heavy rain of poison. Around turn 4-5 half of his models were wounded by poison and Minuro and an Ashigaru just outright melt away under the wave of green acid smiley.

It was a really fun list to play and the Ito trio was really helpfull. They basically just slithered where they wanted with light footed. (We played on a table that had quite a lot of Difficult terrain elements.) Ayako sadly died to Bikou at the end but by that point I was in so mutch lead in both Scenario and models that it just didn't make any difference.

The highlight of that match was when I just decided to slaughter his Mizuchi. The poor drake had no chance of survival when Kenzo, Hitoshi, and a Temple Bushi ganged up on him. I exhausted the drake with Ayako's stun(and a hit a T. Bushi) makeing it suffer a -1 for stun a -1 for exhaust, the 2 outnumbering models also made this worse with -2, and to just add insult to injury I Immobilised it (further a -1) and made it Prone (also a -1). Then Kenzo (who had only 1 wound left by that time) attacked it bought a dice and of course put all into attack (10 dice all in attack). Of course this move was only made for fun but it was quite hilarious at that time.Rest in peace Mizuchi cool

Ret-MattT
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That is a cool list. Ito has quite some ranged capability and coupled with poison that´s quite a box of tactical tolls of which you seemed to get the most out of.

Orochis Shadow is interesting as it could open up for an early big hit from Psychic Venom. If you brought both Shisais and Focused T1 you could Shadow the opponents biggest (non-Toughness) models T2 and drop 6 Level 1 Poison counters on them. The drawback is that it´s slow in effect. T2 they take 1 wound, T3 = 2 wounds, T4 = 2 wounds and T 5 = 1 wound. Not exactly Ikiryo speed. Maybe it´d be better to go Sakura + Kazuhiko + Shadow and aim for the biggest enemy T1. If Kazu focus and Channels 2 Ki to Sakura she´ll have 4 for PV T1. That´s 1 wound T1, 2 wounds T2 plus 1 wound T3. This strategy could actually make Kazu come into his own as his Ki-feat would have time to kick in. He could move up T2 while Sakura poisons some other enemy nearby and T3 he gets Ki from Sakura for the Prayer. On the other hand would you have 2 models which needs babysitting out of the average 7 model warband and it hangs on the enemy bunching up around them. That´s to many gears in motion for little gain at a minimum cost of 12 Rice imo.

I tried the Satoshi Ashigaru strategy yesterday (Kenzo, Satoshi, Sakura, Takeiji, Jade Mamba Guard, 2 x Temple Bushi). Unfortunately didn´t it feel like it is worth it beyond the possible T1 rush. We played Reikan so the Order didn´t matter that much, but the general feeling was that 9 Rice for 3 MS is a waste of resources. Ito doesn´t lack guys that can defend against the best of them, but diluting the offensive capability was sub-optimal. I´d rather had another 4 MS Samurai to blow holes in their line (Read Masunagi wink)

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Greeny
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still the obsession with MS..;)

 

good surmise of the list there though, Kazuhiko doubles as a disposable speedbump for the Shisai in your alternate, may give it a try:)

Ret-MattT
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You should play more vs Temple if you don´t see the worth in MS Greeny smiley When Master Po Unblockable Strikes your last defence die because you wanted a list full of trickery averaging in 3 MS, it´s no longer worth it.

I thought of another Ito Poison tactic: Kaihime + the 3 extra BoO for 1 round event. If she lands an arrow with poison level 4, Turn 1, It'd equal 5 wounds (arrow must hit for at least 1 damage) end of turn 2, which is 1 wound short of a dead Hiro. Quite nasty for 1 Rice event. Praise Orochi... wink

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Ret-Ruro
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I'm not really a fan of Kazuhiko sadly. He is a pretty nice disposable model I give him that, and can still do objectives and outnumber others but it happens far too often that due to 1 bad roll he just dies turn 1-2 and then i'm down with a model and 4 rice.

When the third shisai is released I'll definetly try to make a list with all 3 in it because that could mean tons of psyhic venom that actually hits each turn, though i'm worried about how to actually protect them then. (Though Blind Devotion could help that)

Also about that Kaihime tactic, thats basically what I used to melt an ashigaru. The arrow hit for like 2 wounds and 2pieces of level 2 poison.

Mostly I only played 35 rice games so now I'm quite surprised by how mutch more potent thet poison is at the 50 rice level.

Greeny
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Lol, I see the value in MS, I just don't overvalue it, after all when master PO unblockable strikes my Bakemono or kairai... Ah well, plenty more where they came from;)

nice trick with the archer though, I was thinking of something similar with an alpha striking bushi..

GCT Master Enos
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Kahime and 2 poison 2 counters is harsh regardless.  Not so good for Temple but I would expect it to get 6 damage most times.

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Greeny
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some days you just have to put your hand up and admit you were wrong, and thursday was one of those days.. tried two different lists with both Shisai in against the same all samurai+Takeji Ito list and boy, was that a terrible idea.

Ayako- amazing, stunned people left right and centre, especially when you've given them weak mind (shut down Mazunagi for a whole turn by stunning him, then stealing his Ki) but the +1 for the extra shisai made no difference whatsoever, I would have passed every hypnotic gaze test anyway, and the other feats I failed i would have failed anyway (i tried to steal Itsunagi's ki once for a laugh) I may as well have taken Takeji and had slightly more of a chance. she was a star but is only situationally worth 10 rice. 

I am now going to unashamedly cross the floor and agree with EreshKigai and MattT, two shisai is not the way forward as the rules currently stand, one (as a Ki battery for Satoshi/Itsunagi) is fine, but if thats all you want take the 7 rice option. 

 

(no bat rep for now as frankly my opponents dice rolls were so painfully good (3 triple 6 combats in a row) that it wouldn't have been very interesting,)

Ereshkigal
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If you agree with me, it's terrible news. Let's hope for a third and cheaper shisai that enhances the other 2.

I have to admit that channel into Itsunagi seems pretty good, but using a 10 rice model only to do that is too expensive. Sakura on the other hand...

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Ret-MattT
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At least it´s nice we agree Greeny smiley The concept of Shisais is very cool, so I keep waiting for their break. In the meanwhile they show up solo in my Warbands.

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Ret-Ruro
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Yeah it's either you take one shisai or none at all. I just hope that the 3rd one will have a good rice cost. It doesn't even have to be cheaper then Sakura as long as she is between Sakura's and Ayako's cost (8-9) AND brings something new that synergises with them.(Maybe a Ki feat to strip the enemies Tought trait? A feat that would make the poison "explode" dealing it't damage inmmidietly would be nice too.)

As for the topic of lists, I will hopefully be able to try my last list again tomarrow but this time switching out Ayako for Sakura with a Healing Balm on her. I just hope that it will be a good combination and worth the rice investment. (At least this way she will have other things to do then just focus/channel or P. Poison+Walk.)

Also call me obsessed with MS too but I hope that Temple Bushi looking Hebi guy will be like Akimoto except like 1 rice more expensive but with maybe 3MS and not a -1 wep cheeky (Yea I just want a Temple Bushi statline BoO(2) model, then I wouldn't even mind the impetus... well I can keep wishing I guess.)

Ret-A_Palmer
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How are people finding the Special Cards and fitting them into their lists?  I'm finding it hard to get the extra rice to include any Special Cards in most of my lists unless I have a very specific tactic or build in mind and then make the list around that - for instance, Satoshi wants the Elixir of Vigor like it's the last can of Mountain Dew (that may actually be what it is...).

It always goes to tiebreakers.

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Deadjester
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I still haven't gotten a chance to add cards yet myself.  I got a game of Bushido in last night but it was a demo game so we only played starters.

Based on what I'm seeing though I severly doubt I would have use more than two....and even then I don't think I'd spend more than 3 rice ever on special cards.  And overall I'd say you would have to use them for a particular strategy or tactic in mind.  Which overall is one of the things I like about them.

Shame about the Shisa but seems to be in-line with the general concensus of them.  Sakura works well as a ki battery and is an acceptable cost.  Ayako has a nasty ability but the 10 rice is just a little much when there are more reliable models for Ito for equal or lesser value.  The two of them together is just too much.

The Dice Gods are a cruel and fickle pantheon.

If Bushido were to be summed up in one word I would use "intense". You know a game is good when the tension runs so high you feel like you're about to have a heart attack.

Ret-Ruro
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Well I find myself experimenting with the cards because they add a lot of stuff to the game. How I go about putting in some is I think about how it would compliment the list and most of the time I just "downgrade" a specilized Ashigaru into a normal T. Bushi and that usually does the job of giving me 1 rice excess.

Most of the cards are good only with Shisai setups (which are not so good till the 3rd one comes out sad), but I find quite a few among the lines of utility that can be considered even with just 1 Shisai in the list.  Out of the 7 Ito cards I would say 6 are great (the Clan Armor at the minute is pretty standard).

Deadjester has the right idea even though he doesn't have the cards. The most you should use is 3 rice worth of cards, though its up to you how you spend that. Most of the time I just use 1-2 Rice worth of them though. I tried using more then 3 rice worth (4 specifically) and that hindered me so hard, at that point its mutch better to "upgrade" some models or just use Kazuhiko.

Also about the game with Sakura and a Healing Balm on her... well I won but the Healing Balm didn't really do it for me. Welp time to try something else wink.

Ret-MattT
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I think you had a good insight with the Healing Balm Ruro. As the game revolves around actions and so few models it's critical that all actions affect the boardstate as much as possible. Further since there are no wound penalties healing is powertful. 1 Rice for that extra type of action seems like a good investment.

E.g. Sakura could work as a Sniper/Field Medic, trailing the fighting models. It´d be quite good to activate her close at the end of the turn when you know which friendlies need healing, which enemies that could be picked off with a Psychic Venom shot or which friendly that could use extra Ki.

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Ret-Ruro
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The only problem with the Healing Balm - Sakura combo was that she has to position herself pretty close to some of the fighting and that makes taking risks. Though I just used a Jade Mamba as a frontline for her so even if stuff happens she can be bodyguarded.

But yea, using the Balm means walking around a whole lot. I'm thinking about trying it out on Kazuhiko too, and give it a few more tries on Sakura, but at the moment I'm experimenting with all kinds of card setups. The next experiment will be a Satoshi with Elixir of Vigor, and the Shrine.

I still have to try Dark Secrets too but I don't like the aspect of paying 2-3 rice for something that can just fail on a roll and be totally useless for that mutch rice.

Ret-MattT
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Well, Sakura has a 3rd action that she wants to do: Scenario. That forces her to stay close to the action. As she has 2MS she can hold out until help arrives differing from Aiko who usually hugs the Temple deployment zone smiley

I´d love to see some use for Kazuhiko. I can envision switching a Temple Bushi for a Kazu-Medic, but still. That means you have to spend at least 7 more Rice on Sakura to get some use of the 1 extra Ki he generates for her. Otoh hand again would that be an onus for a semi-Poison strategy as Sakura does synergize well with Kazu in theory. Lets say:

Kenzo

Kaihime

Sakura

Kazuhiko + Healing Balm

Takeiji

Jade Mamba Guard

Hitoshi

+ Ororchi´s Shadow (1 Rice)

The plan here is to first land a Psychic Venom on their best melee model T1 with the help of the Shadow event. Next to stick a poison arrow on the next level melee threat. T2 the fighters engage and try to poison whoever they can. Finally Kazuhiko Prays and adds more poison. By the end of turn 2 we should´ve damaged 2-3 enemies 1-2 wounds each.

The aber is that it supposes a tight formation, as the prayer is a 3" aura, and that it is a synergistic and complicated battle tactic in a game where we win by scenario actions. Good for The Idols, but less so in Keii. Yet, there´s a lot of ranged attacks allowing us to pick of annyoing harassers like Rat Swarms and Peasant support.

Agree on Dark Secrets. It´s a gamble that may not pay off.

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Ret-Ruro
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That's an interesting concept I must say smiley. I will propably give it a go along the 2-3 other lists I want to try soon.

Also they don't have to be in 1 big bulk, you can just either solo with Kenzo (because he can do stuff on his own pretty well, and if things go bad just side step out). Kaihime can pretty mutch go with 1 ashigaru and kill stuff.

The only 2 guys I would move in a group in that list is either Sakura and Kazuhiko(duh), or Sakura and the Jade Mamba while Kazuhiko would just run around to heal and give Ki to Kenzo, Kaihime or Sakura.

A variation I would try with this list is making Takeji into just Chiyo (saves 1 rice) and downgrading the mamba to a simple T. Bushi (saveing an other 1 rice), and use that 2 rice left to get the Shrine of Orochi smiley.

That way it's a bit too mutch invested in cards (4 rice), but it further supplements the main gimmick of the list. But sadly it would struggle in melee exchanges for sure thanks to that 4 rice gap.

Ret-MattT
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I meant that you want to bulk the enemy around Kazu. As you say Sakura and Kazu are the basic team. Then you need enough fighter "bait" to draw a critical mass of enemies there. Kenzo is, well Kenzo. Always amazing in whatever role he gets. I´d see him as bait o 1 or cover a flank by himsel here.

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Ret-MattT
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Here´s some news in the Ito strategy department from the cold north smiley Following SmogCon showing the power of fast strategies and the ability to act even on turn 1 we´ve tried many builds. Ruy in particular has arrived at a impressive flexible, hitty and nimble one. Inspired by Ret-Orkos comment on the Vial of Raijin´s Breath I dropped the Satoshi + Shisai build and went for Naoko + Vial. The reasoning goes that she can "jump" straight up to the mid section of the table and either perform a scenario action or rely on her Fear 5 and Side Step Defense to control the zone Turn 1.

With this on mind I devised a list and met the Ruy in Ryodo.

Ito

  • Itsunagi
  • Naoko + Vial of Raijin´s Breath
  • Takeiji
  • Jade Mamba Guard
  • Hitoshi
  • 2 x Temple Guard

Ruy (as I remember it...)

  • 2 Pass tokens
  • Hiro + Inspiring Words + Elixir of Vigour
  • Genji
  • Matsu
  • Junichi
  • Jin
  • 2 x Ruy spearman

The jump strategy paid off as the Ruy couldn´t simply cram the mid zone with Ashigaru spears like they had wanted. After the dice had rolled it ended 2-1 to Ito, but the take home message was that the 1 Rice investment in the Vial is a nice and cheap way to get presence where you want it T1 for a Faction with a M5 model.

In hindsight the lack of ranged ability (Matsu is just amazing) and glasscannon feature of Itsunagi I think this would be the next iteration of the "jump" strategy:

  • Kenzo + Elixir of Vigour
  • Kaihime
  • Naoko + Vial of Raijin´s Breath
  • Jade Mamba Guard
  • Hitoshi
  • 2 x Temple Guard

I´ll retain the option of grabbing a zone or performing a scenario action T1 plus projecting the threat of sticking a poisoned (2/2) armour piercing arrow on anything approaching the mid line. That´s likely to kill anyone with 5-6 wounds end of turn 2. Finally Kenzo could grab another objective when up against another fast strategy.

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Ereshkigal
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It's similar to my list, but i play with only 5 models.

Kenzo
Naoko + Vial/Vigor (to grab an idol turn one)
Kaihime
Masunagi
Itsunagi

It surely feels you lack activations, but since you can grab an idol turn 1 you can then focus on chopping enemies on the approach. And you surely chop them well.

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Ret-MattT
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That´s some Samurai City you got there. I don´t understand what you mean by lacking activations. Can you elaborate?

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Ereshkigal
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Well, in a typical turn i have only 10 actions, while my opponents usually have 12-14 and so they can turn idols after my models are all exhausted and i can't do anything about it except trying to engage them. When i engage i usually don't activate models that are already in btb, trying to gain an edge with the other models and forcing my opponent to use his activation to do the melee exchange.

But in reality i just need to kill 1 enemy model to be ahead.

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Ret-MattT
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On: 3 days 1 hour ago
Joined: 04/26/2013 - 18:27
Posts: 991

You wrote in a way that I interpretated is as you though I was lacking activations, but I believe you were meaning your own. smiley Yes, your list is a killer one indeed and has to take down enemy models fast to have a chance at winning. I imagine it´d be tough to face Wave who resummons their lost Bakemonos or Yurei with rising Kairais.

The Eagle shares the nest. The Dragon burns it. Join the Black Eagle and crush the usurpers!

undead_ichi
undead_ichi's picture
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On: 2 days 22 hours ago
Joined: 06/29/2012 - 14:06
Posts: 969

i have used a similar list pretty well here are my observations

in my groups meta it works really well no-one has been able to deal with it baring bad dice so i have prob won 70-80% of battle,

but....

i took my version of the list to smog con and got trounced, in one of the games my dice rolls where the worst i have ever seen ever but when people know how to deal with it , they they are very easy to shut down.

 

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