Controlled models

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Da Gobbo's Grotto
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Controlled models

Ok guys here's the scenario

 

Ushi puts a control token on Manu, before he activates the token Wasapu one shots Ushi killing him. Does the wave lose the control token on Manu as Ushi is now dead or does it stay in play?

 

ta

Wogshrog
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You could argue that flavor wise it should be that way, but nothing in the rules states that the control token should be removed.

Da Gobbo's Grotto
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So I learned to my disgust (yes I used that word) this actually made me throw my toys out of the pram.  

The model that put the control token on and therefore is controlling my model is dead, brain function interrupted by the xbow bolt that was burning through his skull how on the Kami blessed earth can he control Manu?

I hope this made the errata as it has totally bummed me out.

"When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know. When you listen, you learn something new."
Dalai Lama

“Move swift as the Wind and closely-formed as the Wood. Attack like the Fire and be still as the Mountain"
Sun Tze. The Art of War

Wogshrog
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Your model is already enthralled nothing can break that, not even the caster's death, aside from another spell !

Ret-A_Palmer
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Control tokens do not vanish.  You have to clear them off the usual way (Cleansing, melee actions, letting your opponent do things, etc).

It always goes to tiebreakers.

The Jumo Ring - a Bushido Blog

Da Gobbo's Grotto
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Wogshrog wrote:

Your model is already enthralled nothing can break that, not even the caster's death, aside from another spell !

enthralled by who? The caster is dead, the rest of the warband haven't got any means of control? Personally I think this is weak.

"When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know. When you listen, you learn something new."
Dalai Lama

“Move swift as the Wind and closely-formed as the Wood. Attack like the Fire and be still as the Mountain"
Sun Tze. The Art of War

Da Gobbo's Grotto
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Ret-A_Palmer wrote:

Control tokens do not vanish.  You have to clear them off the usual way (Cleansing, melee actions, letting your opponent do things, etc).

I let it go in the game (after much whining and foot stomping) but personally I think this is bogus. If the controller is manipulating the model, how on earth is he doing that from beyond the grave

"When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know. When you listen, you learn something new."
Dalai Lama

“Move swift as the Wind and closely-formed as the Wood. Attack like the Fire and be still as the Mountain"
Sun Tze. The Art of War

Ret-A_Palmer
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And what about Dark Secrets?  That's not even a model.

It always goes to tiebreakers.

The Jumo Ring - a Bushido Blog

Da Gobbo's Grotto
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That's information held by the gangsters regarding an individual, hardly the same as demon projecting thoughts into another beings head...

"When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know. When you listen, you learn something new."
Dalai Lama

“Move swift as the Wind and closely-formed as the Wood. Attack like the Fire and be still as the Mountain"
Sun Tze. The Art of War

HMK
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So... You oneshot and killed a 15+ model, probobly the priciest around, and felt you got to short end of the situation? Yeah...not sure im going to agree with that mate. ;)

 

GCT Master Enos
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Control markers can represent various different methods of control.

The feat "Obey" for example seems like the target is given a single instruction it must follow, it wouldn't matter if the instructing model were killed after the instruction were given.  In some cases the model is removed to apply the token so it would be pretty bad if removing the model ended the control!

Also tracking where control markers came from is another thing to have to track.  If a warband has multiple control markers then when one model inflicting them dies knowing which markers to remove can be an issue.

Overall the control mechanic is as it is to cover a lot of different "Flavours" of control and it works for most but in the end fluff=\= rules so while control being quite powerful is on my special list of potential issues to watch, this is not likely to change.  It wasn't brought up in time to be considered for the upcoming errata, that is locked and with production for formatting.  Sorry if it doesn't match your vision of Usha's control but everyone imagines the rules differently in their minds so we can't please everyone.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

GCT Master Enos
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Wasupu one shorter Ushi?

He's also going on the list.

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

Axiam
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I'm with Master Enos on this one, the Obey feat could be a geas (meaning magical quest in case I fluffed the spelling) that the controlled model is compelled to complete. Killing the caster of that Obey wouldn't change that, plus you'd have issues with what happens when the other head takes over...

Hanami Rose takes control by love potions, presumably on the lips (killing her would enrage the controlled model not release it for example). 

At the end of the day the rule is that the model afflicted by control temporarily loses their senses and switches warband for X turns, no individual model is controlling it, for some reason the model just wants to attack his friends. The reality is that your opponent is controlling the model. You don't kill your opponent by killing the cause of the defection.

Although it sounds like you may have come close! ;)

Axiam

Da Gobbo's Grotto
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HMK wrote:

So... You oneshot and killed a 15+ model, probobly the priciest around, and felt you got to short end of the situation? Yeah...not sure im going to agree with that mate. ;)

 

i might have been mildly happy (delirious) my classy "I one shotted your b**tard demon" dance was both tasteful and understated..... ;-P  

having been on the receiving end of Ushi's mind control for game after game I was understandably (imho) happy! only to find out that Manu was still going to be controlled so I had a bit of a strop compounded by my opponent not given me the one-shot honours because I used "Strafe" to kill him (it was still one activation) 

"When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know. When you listen, you learn something new."
Dalai Lama

“Move swift as the Wind and closely-formed as the Wood. Attack like the Fire and be still as the Mountain"
Sun Tze. The Art of War

Damon Carlton
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He was dancing and jumping and lunging with hand gestures and shrieks of Joy after he killed Ushi. It was our 3rd game and we ran out of video storage so I didn't catch it on camera but it was so over the top, the joy he experienced was maahhooosive!!

However he used his ki feat strafe and so took 2 ranged attack actions to kill him, we have a little disagreement on the one shotted him, as I say he made 2 ranged attacks and Andy says he did it in one activation.

He then stepped up his dance and gleefulness thinking the control token would be removed too only to then stomp his feet and whine when I read out the rule section saying he couldn't. It was a sight to behold lol

It was all good fun and things have been learnt

 

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Da Gobbo's Grotto
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don't forget Manu also punched Waku's face through the back of his head......

"When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know. When you listen, you learn something new."
Dalai Lama

“Move swift as the Wind and closely-formed as the Wood. Attack like the Fire and be still as the Mountain"
Sun Tze. The Art of War

minoa
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To be fair, I've found opposed ki tests to be STS's biggest weakness, which is the way it should be. They shoot well, they brawl well, they need the inherit weakness to be "bossed around" for time to time. Which again, fits the fluff to a T. They're not spiritual leaders, they're not demons from another realm, they're just thugs.

Damon Carlton
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Fair comment Minoa, and Mr da gobbo it took both Dafukia and Manu to remove Waka. He tied up manu for 2 turns but i was a bit underwelmed with him, only managed one wound with his range attack and then it was in my way lol

 

Rule'z of the Nerdherd
A proud owner of a gold Bushido coin and a wooden spoon.

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