Insight into change

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Henrix
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Insight into change

Insight into change teaches us to embrace our experiences without clinging to them — to get the most out of them in the present moment by fully appreciating their intensity, in full knowledge that we will soon have to let them go to embrace whatever comes next.

- Buddha

 

What has changed with the New Dawn?

Let us see what we can find - just a shorthand list to make it easier to see what has happened. And rule changes - the profiles can go in their respective sections.

 

  • One of the most obvious changes is of course that Triggers are gone. Instead there are Special Attacks and Defences. Some models have access to one or more of these, and chooses which one to use for their attack and defence. Often, but not always, they cost a dice to use.

 

Malhorme
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I like the "volume" concept. It will make covers more easy to calibrate.

Mezzek
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Were are the new rules for download?

 

Ok Sorry found it.

cain
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First impression from the cards: Wow, fuzzy icons. And lots of it.

Henrix
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  • The Damage roll on the Wound table is now 2d6, and a roll of 6,7 or 8 gives as many wounds as the success level. This removes the wild effect of the single d6 and gives a more average result.

It also makes abilities like Assassin more reasonable - taking the best two of three is more manageable than best of two.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

mertaal
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You will find that combat is MUCH more deadly and decisive. Gone are the days of frequently wiffing with two "uber" models. When people hit it HURTS!

 

Also a lot of the turn order issues, what Ki feat can be used when, etc, is now written in stone, with no room for ambiguity. 

 

Aaaand the replacement of triggers with Special Attacks and Defences adds a good deal of tactical diversity and tricks which weren't there before. 

 

And of course, lots more to boot!

Malhorme
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Hello again,
3 things.
- there is writen "beta test" on all card! Mistake or still subject to modifications?

- how do we manage ki on a card with 2 mini on it? Do both mini use the same ki stock? If no, wouldn't it be more easy to have the right to have 2 cards (as it is stated we can not), and to have only one mini on it?

- will we have another minuro mini, or do we have to by another starter if we want the 2?

cain
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The rules state that additional 6es still add +1 to tests. But in combat you already get +2 for each 6.

So whats the final result if i roll 6-6-6 in combat, 10 or 12?

GCT xoddsx
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Thanks Cain, will look at the wording...

 

It's 10.

 

First dice gives you 6, then the next 2 dice give you a plus 2 each.

Here's some examples to make it clearer;

6(6),6(2),2(1)=9

5(5),5(1),3(1)=7

6(6),6(2),1(0)=8

4(4),2(1),1(0)=5

Numbers in brackets are that dice's contribution to the total. 

 

Polar_Bear
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Like the new stuff. Need more table-time to fully 100% ingest all the changes. Looking over the new cards, the icon-overload on initial view will help when I get those memorized.

 

I, too, am wondering about the "multiple-model-card" thing. I know the rules state to put things like tired and exhausted tokens out near the model now, instead of rotating the cards. I really liked the card-rotation instead, as it means fewer tokens out on the actual playing surface, which can sometimes cause trouble. I was also one of the proponents of keeping everyone named (except maybe Kirai and Bakemono) and special. They can have the same rules between Jin and Yoshio, but I liked it when they were still Jin and Yoshio and not "A" and "B."

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cain
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Tokens near the model may get complicated once you get bigger close combat fights. I still prefer tokens on the card & card rotating. Think if you just print 2 spear ashigaru cards for example and note A & B on it it still works in the old way.

 

Thanks Cain, will look at the wording...

page 8, second paragraph, last sentence. Think its just written to work for "normal non combat" tests, because combat has the different/additional +2 value for 6es.

Maybe if you roll 4 6es in combat you get 11...

 

What happens if normal Bakemono use the Focus action now?

GCT xoddsx
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Tokens - on the table it is a huge improvement on tracking the state of each individual model. It was difficult at times either remembering or looking at turned cards to see;

1. Who is going to attack you

2. Who.can you attack with.

This increased ease of reference makes for much more tactical decision making.

hithero
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Rotating the cards also caused problems as you might have to rotate the right way up to read it.  I hate tokens on the table-top to so used to put markers on the cards, and yes, prefer individual cards for the same reason.

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Henrix
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It seems my plans for a thread just listing all changes went the way of the dodo! wink

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

Polar_Bear
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The original rules stated to put Ki tokens and such on the cards and I found it very helpful. With everyone able to generate and hold Ki (well, 99% of models able to generate Ki), trying to have it out on the table would've been a nightmare. Having it on the card, sometimes you had to move the Ki tokens out of the way, but in general, it really helped keep track of who had what Ki.

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Henrix
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Yeah, I'm also in favour of having separate cards, with individual names, for each model.

Except possibly for bakemono who really have no individual Ki.

But I prefer tapping the cards to cluttering up the table. Easier to move the minis as well.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

Kahunadave
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I for one prefer to use tokens next to figures. I play many games and it helps my opponent and myself keep track on what's happening. I now do it for all my games. Ki tokens can be kept aside. Looking forward to reading through the rules and seeing how this game now plays.

Henrix
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Malhorme wrote:

Hello again, 3 things. - there is writen "beta test" on all card!

I think these rules are still in the playtest state. No longer a closed but open playtest.

Isn't it?

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

Humorous_Conclusion
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Personally, I favour turning the card to track condition. We already have potentially multiple counters for different states, each of which are nearly the size of a small base. I could see the table becoming overloaded with counters.

Personally, I think the counters should be a bit smaller and square. If we have to print them out and cut them up I would prefer a shape that is easier to cut.

Looking at the cards. I think it will be very difficult to see the difference between the "No Move" and "Not in melee" icons. They are easy enough to see on screen, but when printed out at card size will just look like red circles.

Looking at the rules there are some clear improvements, weapons should be much easier to handle, and everything is explained much more clearly, even if the English is a little broken. I do think there are too many traits however. Why, for instance do we need Iron Mind and Strong mind. I can see the difference between them, but fundamentally, they are just a way of boosting ki defence. The more traits you include the harder it is to keep track of them and the more likely they end up being forgotten and not used in the actual game.

Malhorme
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Ret-Henrix wrote:

It seems my plans for a thread just listing all changes went the way of the dodo! wink

 

My apologies, I'm one of the first that ruined your topic :-)

 

Henrix
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No need to apologise - I should have realised this is the first sort of thread we need! (So, in a way, I should thank you! wink)

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

GCT Master T
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Hi everyone whos taken the time to read through the rules set and comment. If i could try and answer and advise some of the questions points raised here. Part of the process will be to further tweak the rules to enable to best and clearest rule set for you guys. 

1. 6's do in effect add +2 but if you think of it as the normal +1 for an additional 6 in any other test and then an additional +1 for the additional 6 in Melee Exchanges and Ranged Attack tests. We will put another example of this in there in the next few weeks. 

2. You can have up to the number of models on a card equal to the number of wounds tracks. The models which are multiples to a card have low or no Ki and so we found it easy to manage, either say top of the card is A bottom is B. 

3. Managing tokens on the Table. Whatever people find easier to manage the game is the way they should go. We found that if you double side the Tired and Exhausted condition markers you dont have that many on the table and it makes a much better visual guide to what has and hasnt activated. Also there are usually only a few additional markers on the table if you put Poison/Fire markers on the profile cards.

4. Concerns about the size of the cards. I think we will remove the tokens from the rules pdf and provide a seperate pdf as the tokens are scaled to be printed directly onto 16mm stickers to remove the need to cut them out. This is conveniently the size of a 1p coin.

5. Removal of some of the names. The majority of the characters have names and we felt that actually removing the names from the more generic models enabled people to tell there own stories and create their own narative.

6. Is this a final version? and are these the final cards. The cards up on the site are slightly lower res that the printed versions and so visually they will be alot clear in the card. We are looking for areas that need to be clearer or if there is an interaction we missed. 

Cheers and keep the feedback coming. 

If people have specific questions about why things we changed and the thinking behind it, please create a topic and ill answer as soon as possible. Happy the feedback is positive :)

"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."

Greeny
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Humorous_Conclusion wrote:

Why, for instance do we need Iron Mind and Strong mind. I can see the difference between them, but fundamentally, they are just a way of boosting ki defence. 

I questioned the need for those two and force of will, but actually they make sense really- 

Iron mind- defensive benefit to Ki tests only, for those who can fight off evil influences, but cannot force their own will onto others.

Force of will- offensive benefit to Ki tests only, for aggressive characters who are  able to attack others, but those without strong mental defenses.

Strong Mind- all opposed Ki tests, for awesome mental skills like Master Ekusa.

Although I do agree too many traits can complicate things, but I feel the slight differences to these three do make a difference to game play:)

For tired/exhausted tokens I have made a thin plastic crescent that fits around the edge of a 30mm base, one side is orange (tired) the other is red (exhausted) and I'm going to use those for now, eventually I'm going to make up some three sided markers to sit on the table edge with the characters name on a green/orange/red background, so I can turn it to the right facing as I activate them:)

Kahunadave
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I'm planing on hitting advanced deployment for my token needs. They have always done a grand job

Ret-CrazyFish
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I may be in the minority, but I like the tired/exhaused tokens.  It allows me to look at the field and decide my actions faster.  Sometimes its hard to tell what cards belong to which models from across the table.

Also, I play Warmachine and X-Wing, so tokens all over the table don't bother me much.

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Humorous_Conclusion
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Greeny wrote:

Although I do agree too many traits can complicate things, but I feel the slight differences to these three do make a difference to game play:)

Certainly they make a difference to game play. The question is whether they make enough of a difference to justify three entirely seperate traits? Especially when we have to keep track of what they do and some models have six or seven.

Ret-Deathjester
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Have just finished readying through the New dawn rule-set and had a look at all the new cards for each faction. A few things I noticed or will comment about have already been mentioned but these are just my personal observations and opinions as I have been into this game right from the start.

Rules in General - Overall a more clear, precise set of rules. Certain elements have been clarified and made easier to understand. Ranged combat in general. Although it looks quite daunting with all the steps involved it actually makes shooting alot easier and straight forward - Now only having to beat a target number without the opponent having to roll for defence.

Special Attacks/Defences not Triggers - I really like this new concept compared to triggers. I was never a lover of the trigger mechanism, yes it did reward you with a special result if you managed to get a good success but they were exteamly infrequent in my opinion. Having the Special Att and Def system now and having to decide whether to use a die or not makes combat a bit more tactical and interesting.

Tokens - I love tokens! use a token to indicate tired or exhausted on the table in my opinion more practical. Turning the card was ok but I had my Ki on the card, then I needed to ready the card, flip the card over to read the back etc..... just place a token - status = Sorted.

Traits and Feats - Basically for the traits I was just wondering why negative Traits (like Cumbersome) are no longer colour coded (red) etc. I find whilst scanning the card that if they were highlighted a different colour as previous they stand out better.

For Feats my opinion is mainly a cosmetic one. With all the new icons dictating Active. Target etc plus the Ki cost. I found the front of the profile card very cluttered. Just the Title would be sufficient with the whole description as already printed on the rear of the card acceptable.

Wounds Track - Another cosmetic difference I'm afraid. I positively prefer the old segemented wounds track and still think if we have to have multiple generic characters i.e. Prefecture Arqubusier it could still be done as per previous cards. Really dont like the white dots.

Quick Reference Sheet - A QRS at the rear of the rules with relevant tables and Feat icons explained would be useful.

Multiple Generic Characters - Ok, a few points here. Looking at this, we now can only have a maxiumum of eight Bakemono on the table instead of nine. Also how do we use the Horde ability? do you have a horde of eight or two hordes of four? does a horde now cancel out the Cowardly trait? when you activate a horde do you just activate one Bakemono or all of them? from what I can see, at the moment the actual horde looks less effective than previously.

Personnally I would have prefered to keep individual characters and not have generics. Bushido is a small scale skirmish game and being played with small numbers on a 2x2 board I feel is a very personal game, hence each character matters (yes even Savage Wave meenie beasties) I can understand making some generic i.e Cult Kirai but even so if this game is going to be kept roughly around the 50-55 rice point again I feel generic troops detract from the personal character driven forces.

Again, some great moves forward to what is a very clever, exciting game. Good clear concise rules and explanations but a few cosmetic changes that I do not think are needed and unfortunately removal of characters to make generics (my opinion could  possible change depending on further miniature releases to match this idea and possible tournament/campaign based rules which would up the rice cost of forces etc..)

Overall excited and pleased on the route this game is taking and proud to be involved.

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Greeny
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@ Ret- Deathjester: all bakemono on the table are in a 'horde' all the time, as cowardly is much better (just re-roll succesful fear tests, not fear everything) I actually think the horde mechanic is way more useful, now you cant' just snipe models out of a bunch to remove horde bonuses. although the downside is that yes, currently there is a 8 Bakemono top limit, the clear cut amount does stop a lot of the weird questions around it. (plus at 6 ki you aren't going to be summoning that many anymore)

@Humorous_conclusion: Give the game a run through, I think they do make a difference, for example The orphan can instil wrath on even the strongest mind with 3 dice, but is herself vulnerable to mental attacks, you have to play aggressively to get the best from her. 

and as far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as generic troops, just troops I haven't named yet:) 

 

Ret-Kenton
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Ret-Deathjester wrote:

Personnally I would have prefered to keep individual characters and not have generics. Bushido is a small scale skirmish game and being played with small numbers on a 2x2 board I feel is a very personal game, hence each character matters (yes even Savage Wave meenie beasties) I can understand making some generic i.e Cult Kirai but even so if this game is going to be kept roughly around the 50-55 rice point again I feel generic troops detract from the personal character driven forces.

Me too. I worry also that allowing duplications makes it harder to maintain balance in the game as force composition becomes far more variable. I shall watch with interest.

I need to get some games in to comment on how the changes work though. It'd be churlish to comment without actual evidence :). I'm confident it'll all work ok but my gut is unhappy with my SW right now. Killing/sidelining Hiro now appears much more difficult.

The Gaki may just be the single greatest creation of Master T.

GCT Master T
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I would urge people to play through the rules a few times. 

@Kenton; With the changes to the Savage Wave Hiro is less scary. The oni now are not as vulnerable when using Oni Rage (Aggressive, is now so its not all dice in Attack), have Strong (3 dice drop the lowest on Damage rolls) and the Bakemono have 2 Melee Skill. Trust me try it and you'll see :) 

As for the dulpicates, there is only the opportunaty to have an additional model of some of the generic types and now you can name them yourself :)

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Atrus
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Hello. By now seems that im the only one having bad feelings about the changes. Bushido was the BEST tactical game with miniatures and the only flaw was the bakemono problems, but now its more like CHAAAARGE! and pray for a double 6...

These are my conclusions by now, Im not raging about the changes (only a bit >_<) but improving to make the game better. Also sorry my poor english.

RULES

The manual, explanations and clarification of the rules are perfect. Much better than before. The only thing that is worse is the new dice roll with up to 3 dice involved. This way rolling more dice is a lot more powerfull than before, and more slow for the resolution of the rollings. In ranged attacks and mele exchanges I dont like the new system. The new roll involving up to 3 dice is worse than the simple "highest dice/more dice win in ties".

The cards are better (but ugly), much clearer, specially the Ki Feats symbols. Great. (Im also prefer the Life Points with the bars instead dots, but no problem with this cosmetic change because doesnt alter the game).

SPECIAL ATTACKS/DEFENSES

This new system replacing old trigers makes me happy. Is a great improvement for the game. Great addition, but seems like its better roll more dice than use the knoking prone special skills... (half damage and 1 dice for knock prone? really? I have to test it more...), I think that the damage should remain the same. But nice addition anyway; more tactical compents are allways welcome.

DAMAGE

The new table and mecanic of 2d6 is perfect. This adds a gaus bell to damage and less in hands of Luck...... but the 1,1 = Instant failure and 6,6 = Insta Kill... RUINS THE GAME COMPLETELY! This adds a lot of ramdom luck to the game, totally unnecesary. So now I can kill with a tie, rolling on the 0 success level column, and deal an Instakill! (Villager killing a demon with a moment of luck) or deal 0 damage with a success level of 8 with Hiro agains a prone bakemono! WTF! Seriusly, the worse rule ever. These 1,1 and 6,6 results need to be remove from the game. Make the table more deadly if you want, but these makes nonsense for a tactical game. Seriusly. From heart. Fix this >_<

GENERIC MODELS AND CHANGES

This is another thing that makes the game worse. Bushido was a tactical game, where all the models were unique. I know you have to gain money, but making random and generic models is not the way in my opinion. 2 minuros?2 kairai ashigaru? Jin is dead, her imrpoved ZoC doesnt exist. Atsuko is even more dead, without reach, and the re-roll :( Now is a random villager, same that the another peasant. 

However, I love what you have done with the Bakemonos. The Horde is more simple and playable. Are more variations of bakemono, and now finnaly there is a limit for the summonings. Great move! Very well done.

Some models now are very well done but others I dont think so. For example, Kenko now can use the Body of Oak ( with the old rules was useless), but has a limit for the armor and the damage. Nice! The Gorilla however seems a bit Useless due to changes to Aiko. Aiko now only can Bless one time per turn... so why give her a reserve up to 8 Ki, if even with Ekusa she cannot be able to Bless more than one time? Also, she now dont roll for a number of blessings, directly put 1 token on the objective. Ok, so whats the point on putting a blessing on gorilla instead on kenko? Now there is no benefit for being animal and having 0 ki, and these was the gorilla better trait. Now is a mediocre fighter (with the addition of removing leap and including agressive feats). But i have to test this things more on the table... so OK.

OVERALL

The ruleset is more complete and better writen, also is more complex due to new rolls system. The main good addition are the special attacks and defenses and the clarifications of Ki Feats. The worse adition are the new random results (Insta-failures and insta-kills) on the damage rolls (that are good with 2d6). The neutral addition (will see) is the generic models.... I dont like personally and adds a horde possibility to a "Unique models" game, but lets try.

I need to play it more and more, but I hope some thing will be fixed. I pray for the Instakill really removed from the game. Overall is a sense of worry. Bushido was my favourite miniatures game, I purchased The prefacture, the temple, the wave and the Ito, played a lot of games and have had a lots of fun with them, now im very worried about the game. 

 

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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Hakkor
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My turn!

After reading the rules and cards a few times, I'll make my points about the best and worse. Yet, we will be testing everthing hard this week in our local store, so I'll be back next week to tell you about the highlights.

BEST:

- Damage roll and chart: simple, balanced, damage will always be similar to the success limit.

- Special attacks: having to sacrifice dice to get special effects in combat is a much smarter way to play it than absurdly high triggers. It really makes you think twice before any melee roll is made.

- Bakemono Horde: just, a sincere and deep thank you. Taht's perfect. No need to track distances, or numbers, or doubts about summoning. Bakemono now are much scarier for that extra dice, archers are balanced and player may no longer build an self respawning eternal horde.

- Extra dice rolled bonus: having up to 2 lower dice give bonus makes the difference when fighting miniatures with a low MS. No longer will happen a 3-4 diced mini rolling a 5 and a peasant a 6 with a sole dice.

- Simple traits: many traits have been simpled or balanced. Everything reasonable. Yet there are still to much names and a lot to memorise...

 

WORST (do not hate me, I'm still one of yours!):

- Auto-miss & critical strike: no. definitely no. I know people like having a small percentage of a game changing roll, but it doesn't help much the tactical issue, specialy after improving so greatly the random part of the wound chart. Why, on earth, after balancing it, add such a disbalancing rule?

I would just recommend a different aproach (hope someone listens to the following) instead of adding a rule where you can instakill someone with a succes level 0 or fail an attack with a succes level 8. If you roll and get a SL os 0, you already have that 0 damage on a roll of 8 or lower. Isn't that enough failure? On the other hand, why not change on the table those damage results of 10, 11, 12 and 13, and swap then for a "Crit." If you manage such high SL (7+) and wound roll (9+, 11+,), then I guess you TOTALLY deserved a crit hit which uberly turns your enemy to ashes with no rise, armor, o whatsoever it has.

I recommend this, because if a player starts to stack many combo attacks, the double 6 chance improves greatly. At least, the double 6 should only apply in the first roll.

- Generic cards: I'm not the first one to say it and nor I'll be the last. We want sepparate unique and named cards! Guess it will double your sales but are you really going to prepare blisters of each generic unit that come in the starters? Or just blisters of 2 of each (2 kairais of each type, 2 bakemonos of each type, 2 ashigarus, and so on). I just love the game as it was when everybody had it's own name.

No, that matter of "I'll put them names reagardless they are twins!" don't convince me. There should be different minis for each copy. I don't mind if there's the change to deploy 2 kairai vilagers, but each mini is completely different. Should be the same with the rest.

Hope to see more opinions!

Atrus
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Now im reading the rules again and I see that the proned targets in mele cant damage you in exchange, so now I think the special attacks and deffenses are very well done. Also I need to try the Gorilla with his charge (3 attack dice, and if I deal dmg he is prone sounds good enough).

Quote:

- Simple traits: many traits have been simpled or balanced. Everything reasonable. 

This! The traits are greatly improved. Diferences from Armor to thoughness. New deployments traits (cool!), parry, feint, dodge, agressive, deffensive... all better and balanced.

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
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I have found many cases where traits and skills clash. In this case, should there be a general rule that states that opossed efects nulify each other?

Examples:

having first strike + slow

recieving a feint (1) and performing a dodge (1) (2 rerolls or no rerrols at all?)

Bravery vs. Terror (2 rerolls or no rerolls at all?)

etc.

Ret-Kenton
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GCT Master T wrote:

I would urge people to play through the rules a few times. 

@Kenton; With the changes to the Savage Wave Hiro is less scary.

Having had a good look at the cards now I can see that. I'm not freaking here, I did say I needed to play the changes to see how they worked :)

Quote:

As for the dulpicates, there is only the opportunaty to have an additional model of some of the generic types and now you can name them yourself :)

Ok, I didn't realise there was a single card limit. That will help with balance.

How does that work for Bakemono? Can I only have one card or each type at the start (with one or more models on it)? Then summon into the "spaces"? I'm a bit confused on this bit.

The Gaki may just be the single greatest creation of Master T.

cain
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You have 4 cards with 2 Bakemono each. The summon spell can be used 6 times per game and you can only have these 8 guys. So if you got a spot left, you call get this one in.

 

What i cant read in the rules is, what happens with the Ki of focusing Bakemono. It does not go on the horde card (Ki generation phase only), and you cannot put it on the individual cards because you have a max limit of *.

GCT Master T
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Thanks for the feedback guys.

@Kenton, Cain is right you can summon the Bakemono onto blank spaces on the Profile cards, so if you have 8 you cant summon. if you have a space on the Beater card and the Bushi card you can choose which you summon.

@Cain, ill have a long think about it but feel its likely it'll go on the Horde card, just need to check it doesnt break anything.

"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."

Greeny
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Atrus wrote:

but the 1,1 = Instant failure and 6,6 = Insta Kill... RUINS THE GAME COMPLETELY! This adds a lot of ramdom luck to the game, totally unnecesary. So now I can kill with a tie, rolling on the 0 success level column, and deal an Instakill! (Villager killing a demon with a moment of luck) or deal 0 damage with a success level of 8 with Hiro agains a prone bakemono! WTF! Seriusly, the worse rule ever.from the game

. Overall is a sense of worry. Bushido was my favourite miniatures game, I purchased The prefacture, the temple, the wave and the Ito, played a lot of games and have had a lots of fun with them, now im very worried about the game. 

A little harsh I feel, I've played ten (or  more) playtest games already and 6x2 only happened twice, once was redundant as it was Waka's critical striking head at success level 4 with +5s vs Koji, (other than snake eyes he was already dead) and the other time was so damn heroic (lone bakemono spearman defending the critical objective vs Gengo) it felt perfect. I personally like the double 6 rule, it replaces the old 6, 6 rule well, and there should should always be the one in a million chance (or 1 in 32) of something going horribly wrong/right. as it encourages bold play and snowball in hell maneuvres even if you shouldnt really have a chance:) it doesn't make the game less tactical (if you just charge and hope for a double 6 you will ALWAYS lose at bushido, I guarantee it) it just means there's always a chance, even in a runaway victory/defeat.

Antonio_13
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Hi all, I guess I'll throw my opinions in here too.

My immediate problem was with the new icons on the cards-they are at printable size on my screen right now, and they are not clear at all, in fact its impossible to see the difference between 'no walk' and 'no melee'.

I thought the old wound tracks were prettier, but I know some people were confused about whether to count the spaces or the lines, so dots are more clear from a visual perspective. I'd just prefer it if they weren't white. :p Apart from that the new card layout is good, Ki icons is better than a second number for boosting stats, and giving each model a 'type' will help keep down the number of pointless traits while still allowing you to reference similar models for abilities.

On to the rules! I think you have done a great job tidying up the rules, giving proper definitions for LoS, cover, etc. Introducing wait as an action is a releif. (No more moving a model 1" because its forced to take an action).

The melee rules seem to be missing the addition of modifiers. This should be in step 2 right? They also don't explain what to do if both models have a MS of less than 1, which often happens when lone rat swarms surprise a frightened prone model, or something like that. 

The new wound table looks much better, but I'm not a fan of double 6s insta killing all the time. Special attacks/defenses are MUCH better than triggers, one rewards tactical play and adds depth to combat, the other rewarded good rolls.

It does take a while to learn all of the relevent traits for your force - but not nearly as long as learning each unique ability in (for example) a malifaux warband. I think you have reached a good medium here, too many more and it becomes too hard to remember what your models do.

Tokens look good, now all you need is a supplier to print them straight onto plastic. ;)

Hope all that made sense, its getting kinda late on this side of the globe.

Polar_Bear
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Bit of a shameless plug, but there's honest good intentions as well:

At TGN we did a review of New Dawn yesterday and posted up our thoughts (well... my thoughts). If you reply to the thread over there, you could possibly win an Ito starter.

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2012/09/16/64369/

As for having looked over the full new stats a couple times more, I like some of the new balance. The current topic on here seems to be the auto-kill/auto-miss and whether it's good for the game or not...

I tend to find dice are always going to be fickle. Sometimes, no matter what your stratgy is or your opponent's strategy is, what models you take versus what models your opponent takes, what the terrain is set up like, what the scenario you picked is, sometimes the dice just say, "no." Everyone's had those games and I think we can all say that when you look back on a game and just think to yourself, "I did everything 'right' but lost because my average on 2d6 was about 4." it is not with lighthearted joy and a casual smile that you do so.

We all know that dice run the games we play (no matter the game). Strategy and Tactics in miniatures wargames comes from doing your best to mitigate the role that dice play. You leverage your advantages agaisnt your opponent's weaknesses so, in the end, the dice mean as little as possible. You don't send your models in, thinking, "Ok, I need to consistently roll 5+ on all my D6 in order to even make a dent in the enemy force here." That's just feeding your models  to your enemy. Instead, you go in thinking, "even if I just roll 2s on everything, I should still be ok." It's those times that even the 2s seem too much for your dice that things can get frustrating.

So I dunno. If you get rid of the "double-6 = insta-kill" then you need to give Hiro something back to account for his head-chopping-off-edness. But that wouldn't be hard to do. You could just leave the rule for him (that all doubles auto-kill) and it makes him even just a little bit more special on the battlefield.

There are some people that call me... Polar_Bear
In fact, most do.
Come see me over at http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/.

Henrix
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Nice review, Jason.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

Malhorme
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Regarding that dice stuff, i belive it is good actually. I mean, it is nice to keep some "random" in all this. I have a long experience of another skirmish game in which the random part was low: you knew that if you charge B with A, you would kill B in 99% of cases. As a matter of facts the game was more like chess, involved huge "thinking over" phases, that in my opinion finish by killing the gaming pleasure.
So, i like some random, that is good!

Henrix
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I agree. The little extra randomness - and let' s face it, a '6,6' will most often kill anyhow - gives the weaker figure a slim, very slim, hope it wouldn't have otherwise.
It just might survive, it just might kill the BBEG - but it's one chance in 36.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

Leigen_Zero
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I haven't really got to play much with the rules, but I am a little uncertain on the special attacks.

 

Aside from combo attack and powerful attack.  I don't really see there being many reasons (outside of situations involving outnumbering) where you would really use them.

Most of the time, you're not slinging that many dice around in the first place due to modifiers, for example, Oni, on average are slinging around 4 dice (boosted/charging), and when you consider the opponent's retaliation you want to put at least 1 into defence, so we're down to 3 dice.  maybe it's just my favour with the dice-gods but usually on the offensive I need those 3 dice just to land a blow.  Giving up 1 of those dice (and lowering my chances of doing anything at all) to push the model 1" away (and only cause 1/2 wounds) doesn't seem that good a trade-off when I can put everything into the combat and roll 3 dice, giving me a fairly decent chance at a high SL, which could end up killing them outright if you're up against a low HP target.

Henrix
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Many of them are for special occasions only, as you say. (I'd argue that Powerful attack is one of those, but that's for another day).  But sometimes they can really be worth it.

And if you look at the profiles you'll see that many of them actually cost (0) - the only cost is that you can only use one special attack or one defence. [Edited as per what Greeny says just below.]

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

Swedish players, rally to Hokuō Bushido!

Greeny
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I think Henrix meant one special attack OR one special defense, semantics I know but:)

There is a point to all of them, but they are all very situational. I agree combo strike and powerful strike are two of the best as their use is obvious (punch things in face a lot/very hard) but remember Bushido isn't just about killing, sometimes focusing on a model/rules damage potential will distract you from the tactical advantages. The others have to be used at the right time to work out, I think of them as extra Ki Feats that cost as much to use as it does to buy an extra dice in melee. We thought we wouldn't use them much at first but after a few games we were burning Ki to get enough dice to use them, especially the high MS, low Ki cost to increase Monks, who throw these specials around like Bruce Lee. 

Push/Drag/Forceback/Throw are probably the weakest but they have the potential to get you out of an outnumbered situation quite well, and even a small move can clear a charge lane, bring an ally into range, move the enemy away from an objective etc. 

Sidestep defense can be fantastic, The temples Monks become really flexible, if a monk doesn't want to be in melee with you, he won't be. It's like an automatic disengage that you can do in your opponents action, very sweet (I have lost a game due to a monk Sidestepping out of melee to touch an objective, turn Idol as second action, nothing I could do about it)

Critical strike is even more situational, sometimes you may just burn dice as you have them spare, or you may feel you can't do enough damage to kill something (The ashigaru Kairai for example) and want to risk the insta-kill.

Sweep attack/defense is very useful, forcing an enemy to both lose an action and leaving them open for more kickings, I've used it with Nezumi a few times to allow his rats to really mess something up (after all, with low success levels doing 1 wound instead of 2 isn't a big deal)

Counter attack is properly, properly vicious, they can put everything into defense, and if they succeed they don't even have to beat your defense roll! Yumi has smacked me upside the head with that one a few times now, I hate that  Monk so much...

 

Atrus
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Ret-Henrix wrote:

I agree. The little extra randomness - and let' s face it, a '6,6' will most often kill anyhow - gives the weaker figure a slim, very slim, hope it wouldn't have otherwise. It just might survive, it just might kill the BBEG - but it's one chance in 36.

Correct unless the opponent gets a SL of 0 or 1, which would be 3 or 4 wounds. Luckily it usually happens once per game on average (at least in our latest games) and there's no problem while it turns out in high SL rolls. The problem arises when that double 6 comes in turn 2 with a succes level of 0 vs. miniatures like Araka, Shisha, any Oni, etc. The day things like that happen we'll be here yelling and utterly mad :) We can keep track and hopely don't see it get fed.

We have to remember that combo strikes or strong traits (and then, Master Po's ki feat) add far more chances to uberdestroy. We'll se what happens in the future.

 

Anyway, we totally agree with the -1 dice in Special attacks. It's really a hard decision to take. In our games the most special attacks used were the 0 cost ones, but the cost 1 skills, yet situational, may result really interesting (or even funny) during most of the games. It's true some of those special attacks like Combo Strike look scary, but in most minis it's balanced due to a cost in dice, except some few cases which have those special attack at no cost (that's should be the true fear trait!)

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
Welcome to the Oriental-Fantasy-Fusion Game.
http://thetempleofbushido.wordpress.com

Atrus
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Today I played two more battles with the Idols scenario rules (our favourite) and I have to admit that the game is brilliant.

Its more deadly, but well balanced (Maybe you can shorten the game lenght to 5 turns insead of 6, due to at turn 3 or 4 there are few models alive, but its ok anyway).

My inicial concerns about the Insta-kill are almost gone, but still I have fear with the chances of Instakill in results of 0 success level or early in the game (turns 1st or 2nd).

The games were awesome both. We tried a lot of models just for training with the new rules and learn the trick of each model. We used Temple vs Cult, so my opinion on both:

The monks are near perfect (Riku, Yumi, Hotaru, Kenko...), the gorilla its ok too ^^ , very nice the changes to Kitsune fox form (she has one extra wound in this form or is an errata?), very funny model to play. My only concern is about aiko, now she seems a bit low, but I will try her more.

My opponent played the cult, and we think that Gok is a bit overpriced (too expensive "boosting" ki feats) but we have to try him more. Araka was awesome now (maybe too awesome for 9 rice....) and the Large swarm is a beast for 6 rice (has a lot of good traits! piercing, durable, tireless, combo 0, insta-disengage...) but maybe with more fire or a good combo attacks I can destroy it easily.

The changes to Taka and Ikiryo was great too. The only concern with this faction (is not a concern realy but should be revised in the beta rules cause seems broken) is the Marionette. Kato rework is awesome, but the controlled state is way too powerfull now: The tokens never dissapear at the end fase, thats Ok, only with actions. However, when I attack the controlled model for tire him or exhaust him, that model should remove one controlled token. Right now there is nothing to do to combat the controlled state. Is really too powerfull in my opinion.

The new damage table with 2d6 is awesome, and easily calculable in game without the manual. Also its more fair than before with the success level of the mele rolls. Great!

The new special attacks and deffenses are nice addition to the game, just for break mele exchanges and deny the "counterattack" (not the skill :P) or for escape from BtB. Very good. Only, we both think that the Combo strike is too powerfull, because due to the new damage table the combination of rolls deal a lot of damage, ignores some ki feats (ikiryo's touch the void), and durable trait, and adds chances for a double 6. Very powerfull.

Finnally I repeat myself saying that the new rules manual are very well writen and organized, and almost every doubt we have was resolved reading the manual carefully. Good work guys.

Overall the game is great. It's Bushido, it's tactical, and is fun. It's still my favourite game so im happy :D

Bushido its not about Killing, its about Tactic.
Welcome to the Oriental-Fantasy-Fusion Game.
http://thetempleofbushido.wordpress.com

Hakkor
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And that makes us happy pandas.

The controled state is very well explained in the rulebook, which sais it is considered friendly but can't use it own ki feats. The Leech trait sais you can leech any amount of ki from nearby Friendly unit. So there's no restrction leeching ki fom a cntrolled model. Was it meant to be like that, or does it need a revision?

Moreover, as Atrus said, control tokens are only removed when the unit declares an action. A good solution would be to avoid getting into BtB with a controlled model, and let it waste his activations smacking down your own units. In the end, it'll do it anyway, so let's not make him things easy.

But I would also agree in removing a control token after a melee exchange even if it wasn't the active model.

GCT Master T
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Good feedback guys participating in a melee exchange is considered activating but this doesn't appear to be clear will add it in.

"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."

cain
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However, when I attack the controlled model for tire him or exhaust him, that model should remove one controlled token.

participating in a melee exchange is considered activating but this doesn't appear to be clear will add it in

 

Yes that has been answered before when i asked because of Ushis Obey. Just attack your own models, put all dice in defense, and you force it to make the attack action and get rid of a bit control state.

 

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