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Raynzy
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Ok this is the list ive had about 5 -6 games with and so far it seems to be doing pretty well at 50 Rice.

Itsunagi Ito 13 

Kenzo Ito 10

Satoshi 9

Naoko 8

2 Temple Bushi 5/10

It has been doing really well and with a bit of timeing  with activation it really allows the samurai to just roll in and  obliterate opponents. And Naoko Blind is really good espeacially if you use her twice straight away to blind 2 opponents. What you guys think or what you been trying.

Greeny
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interesting list for 50 rice, quite low on 'Blood of Orochi' but fairly hard hitting nonetheless, with all 4 big guns in there I can imagine it's fairly daunting on the field, no temptation to swap a Bushi for Akimoto for the extra Orochi point?

Raynzy
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Ye, i swapped that round a couple of times to see how i feel but having 2 impetuous models can really hamper your turn. I do need to play Sakura and Ayako abit more, but when ive played them ive been abit underwhemled by what they bring, still new and looking at how things tick and synergise though. 

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hello i played a similar list tonight and done pretty well i used sakura instead of naoko and the upgrade to the temple bushi (can't remember her name) have played about 5-6 games with my ito and this is my first victory, it was against cult and he did make a few mistakes, but the highlite for me was itsunagi getting charged byt the big wraith and handing it to him. took 3 actions 1 his and 2 mine to do it but itsunagi took no wounds in return and survived kato attempting to ivory prison at the same time.

i have to say i thought itsunagi was over priced but not anymore

i also agree with you about sakura but i used her as a channel battery for itsunagi and satoshi and that worked pretty well

can't say anything about kenzo as he got super brain blasted but ikiryo but he usually does ok for me.

all in all i really enjoy playing the ito but was starting to get dishartened by the lack of ability to win (last game kenzo and satoshi got crit striked by hiro) but this has restored my faith in them

Ret-MattT
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I got to try the starter pack a few days ago and Impeteous seemed pretty bad in this scenario driven game. Same with solo Shisais as 2 Ki just doesn´t cut it. (Btw anyone know why I cannot use line breaks all of a sudden in this forum? Neither Enter nor Return works!?)

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Henrix
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Impetuous is tricky. (You did use the new rules, right, where Impetuous only forces you to activate that mini first. The older, berserky, version, was bad.)

It is clearly a disadvantage, though. But you can see it as a lost action where you don't do much of worth.

 

(Line breaks work fine for me.)
 

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Ive played quite alot recently against ryu. i have to say Itsunagi really is the boss, has to go in every time. once figured out how to use him he seems to have answer for everything, apart from getting shot by big guns he doesnt like that. 

The downside ive been finding is Ayako and Sakura are not very good, Ayako doesnt pull her weight at all for ten points, thought sakura usually finds her way into a list just for channeling Ki. Also the new 4 point gimp guy, i cant really see myself playing him atall as its a 21 point bundle for ayako sakura and him and he only really useful in that. 

The samurai and Naoka though are ace. having satoshi and 3 ashigaru is awesome aswell they can really ruin opponents if get battle stations off. Kenzo just good because so fast and jammy with Side step defence. Naoka again is awesome. 

I know i run pretty low on blood of orichi tokens but with the ability to just kill models it sort of doesnt really matter. 

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I agree that the Samurai are good and the Priestesses are trickier. I found myself struggling to use Sakura in the last games after Channeling. She´s can´t rush up the field like the fighters and her ranged attack is very slow in effect. Thus it´s hard to get mileage out of her. I´m on the fence with Satoshi, though it´s all theory, because you only gain one action in the best case where he manages to hit all three Ashigaru. I can see it being done turn 1 or 2 though to get a tactical advantage, but later I believe it´s harder to "hold formation". How´s your experience R?

(I have to switch edit modes to get Line breaks to work in this forum. Why the h*ck why?! Very annoying.)

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(You using some sort of funky machine to post with, Matt? The forum software is a bit... odd at times.)

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Battle Stations it tricky to get off because satoshi wants to be stood tanking but you cant do it whilst in melee. I personally dont find it that difficult to get all 3 ashigaru as long as there all alive. 

I tried Running this the other day and it worked fairly well.

Itsunagi 13

Satoshi 9

Naoka 8

Kzukiko(however it spelt not got card to hand) 4

2 temple Bushi 10

Chiyo 6

So good points are Naoka is a boss and can really screw with your opponents turn but be wary as it just seems everyone can remove blind. 4 point dude really does nothing but i dont know what else you could put in for points. possibly swap chiyo and him for Kenzo. which isnt actually a terrible shout and i will try it but low model count can really hurt. 

Ret-MattT
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Ret-Henrix wrote:

(You using some sort of funky machine to post with, Matt? The forum software is a bit... odd at times.)

I wish I did. Simple stationary machine with WIndows 7. I do recall that line breaks did work at some point.

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To continue Raynzy: I´m with you that with these few models in a warband hanging back and having Ki-driven actions seems limiting. Better bring guys and gals with swords who can act without needing spare KI like the Shisais.  At the moment I´m planning for this att 55 Rice: (the local high end number for tournaments) .  Itsunagi Kenzo Satoshi Sakura Chiyo 2 x Temple Bushi I imagine 3 tag teams of Ashigaru + Samurai. Itsunagi and Bushi on one flank, Satoshi and the other Bushi in the middle and Kenzo + Chiyo on the opposite flank with Sakura hanging back in the middle field. Both flanks have characters than can run through the opposoing lines if need be (Itsunagi & Chiyo). Sakura channels Turn 1 and then act support. T2+ Satoshi can fire off his Battle Stations allowing the Ashigarus t both fight and do a scenario action. Well, that´s at least the plan on paper ;)

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With Takeji appearing in the catalogue, we know he's an ashigaru too.  I suspect him and Satoshi are going to be the BFFs on the table.

It always goes to tiebreakers.

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Henrix
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I want to make a straight human samurai and ashigaru Ito list.

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Ive heard this about 55 rice but i asked the GCT master what size games were they intending said 35 50. 

but hey that of no significance to what were talking about. Yh i love the ashigaru and i do wish we had more like them. Your running really similar stuff to me which could be good or bad who knows. I generally Run Kenzo on a flank in any game and itsunagi as a second wave hitter. Given half the chance he will just  shank some folk, but (playing ryu alot) he gets shot alot, so its my preference to keep him back. i do find though feating for cobra strike generally means he can take a charge and still win which is a big thing. Also with satoshi playing him central he doesnt attack just rolls defence dice and tanks like a boss. 

Henrix
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(The 55 rice is my fault. Jwardiff has 55, for historical reasons, and traditions are so very Jwarish! cool 
So att Gubbspel Galore IV it will be 55 rice.)

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Raynzy
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So with Takeji being released ive been running it as

Itsunagi 13

Kenzo 10

Satoshi 9

Chiyo 6

Takeji 7 

1 Bushi 5 

Works really well and having all the samurai and the high number of dice naturally you often dont need to boost attacks which can really save on KI to be used late game. also battle stations in this is properly the best thing ever

Ret-MattT
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Funny, I´ve arrived (almost) at the exact same list Raynzy. At 55 Rice (high end norm around here) I´ll add a Temple Bushi. Although concluded in theory, it´s simply more actions equalling more win yes

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Played 2 games yesterday, but wasn´t that impressed by Battle Stations. It restricts Satoshi and holds you back with the Ashigarus as unless there´s 3 of them under his Order you gain novalue.
 
Another thing is 6 models on 55 Rice seems a tad few. Itsunagi, Kenzo, Ayoko, Akimoto, Takeji and 2 Temple Bushi is my next try out. I really like Blood and Ayokos Ki-stealing/Tire-Stuns alongside her Channel to keep the fighting guys supplied with Ki.

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If you really like Blood and Ayako, you could try out the 'debuff list':

Ito Ayako 10
Ito Kenzo 10
Naoko 8
Sakura 7
Chiyo 6
Temple Bushi 5
Kazuhiko 4
7 Models 50 rice

At 55 points you can either bring Akimoto, another Temple Bushi, or swap in some of the more expensive models like Takeji or Satoshi.

The basics of the list is: make something blind, stunned, and exhausted (though that's optional) and then murder it.  When an enemy model is rolling 1 dice, Kenzo can pretty much spam Powerful Attack and drop the enemy model very quickly.  The list has a little trouble against high Ki/souless lists since Ayako's abilities will have less targets.  There's plenty of Blood of Orochi to go around however (5+ depending on whether you want to sacrifice Kazuhiko) and plenty of channeling to keep the workhorse models topped up on Ki.

It always goes to tiebreakers.

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Ret-MattT
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I'm starting to notice the imbalances in the game. In particular with the Shisai club. The game really revolves around the two actions fight and scenario. If a model cannot do these twice a turn it's simply bad. At a glance I think the trouble is the 2 for 1 system that rewards free fighting over Ki driven. As the Shisais have to pay Ki to fight or cannot fight at all like Kazu they don't work when you only have 5-7 models. The resources are to precious to have non-contributing support. E.g. last game Sakura shot off her poison spell at some guy with her first action at a random turn. Then she was almost useless. She can't melee and walking up trying scenario is a death sentence. I found myself wondering how to use her.

What do you fellow Ito players think? Is the support working for you?

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Personally I feel they're a rice too expensive, but overall I'm pretty happy with what they do (at least in the limited number of games I've played).  Sakura is mainly a Ki battery, and once in a while I throw around a Psychic Venom - especially if there's a model with 1-2 wounds left.  I do find I miss her channeling when I play without her.  
Protect the Mother is a terrible, terrible Ki feat.  If Sakura is in melee, something has gone horribly, horribly wrong; or it's turn 5 and there's only 3 models left on the board anyway.  If it were a 2 or 3" pulse, she would be amazing, but it isn't, so we cry a little inside.

Ayako is basically debuff central but has some horrible match-ups (hi Temple and Cult).  Just cycle Psychic Drain and Hypnotic Gaze each turn, it's especially powerful against the bakemono horde - all those 1 Ki models with a huge pool of Ki to steal from... Correction: doesn't work on the Horde.  It's still pretty cool though.

Their main problem is that they don't do anything in actual combat, so if you lose key fighting models, they're not going to shore up your battle line.  With all their channeling though, you should be able to keep your key fighters quite high on Ki, which in turn should keep them alive unless you get unlucky (it happens).

I'd like to see the Ito Clan get some cheap models that were buffed by the presence of the shisai (rather than buffing the shisai) - like acolytes with MS 2, but get +1 MS when they have the Poison trait (they'd get it from Blood of Orochi), and Bravery when within 5" of a friendly shisai - then we'd have more incentive to bring the shisai along.

It always goes to tiebreakers.

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The sakura+satoshi+3 temple bushI combo at 50/55 is horrific, he can cast order pretty much every rturn giving you 3 more activations, a real pain on the backside:

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A_Palmer wrote:

Just cycle Psychic Drain and Hypnotic Gaze each turn, it's especially powerful against the bakemono horde - all those 1 Ki models with a huge pool of Ki to steal from...

I'm afraid Ayako cannot take Ki from the Horde. She can only take Ki from a model's profile card.
Bakemono have no Ki on their cards.

They may, under certain circumstances, use Ki from the Horde "as if it were on its card". (You can not Leech from them either, which isn't much of a problem for the Wave as they have no model with Leech.)

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Hmmm, not quite as good as I thought then.  I think I owe someone a rematch.

It always goes to tiebreakers.

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Greeny wrote:

The sakura+satoshi+3 temple bushI combo at 50/55 is horrific, he can cast order pretty much every rturn giving you 3 more activations, a real pain on the backside:

You only gain 1 more activation. Satoshi need a complex action to do it.

 

But I think Shisai are Ok. Ayako is awesome alone, and Sakura Is good. Channel is a very good trait. That revalorices with every new model.

And there are sometimes where you cannot stop an enemy to grab Sakura (Fly, Intangible, Leap...) and then the 2 dices + Poision are good. The problen is that these moments you often dont have ki to spend. But you can try to use her offensively. Gran objectives and attack outnumbered model, you exhaust that model + poison him FREE. You dont even need to put dices in attack. Free damage...

 

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You still have 3 activations you didn't have, you have to look at the table as a whole not just total no of activations, (satoshi has still had hus activations after all, and even if you are being pedantic hes had one activation himself) cany model who can make 3 activations not 2 tips the game balance in their favour- move to an idol and turn it twice in the same turn? owch!

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I think the problem is most visible when looking at Sakura and Kazu. As you use so few models in this game, the support is much more vulnerable. Basically we have half the number of models that does twice as much than another typical skirmish game. If the support model then cannot function by it´s own, a to big  percentage of the warband becomes hampered. If the situation had been 10 models doing 1 thing where of 1 was support you´d been at 10% inert action. In the 35 Rice case here it´s 20%. Kazu/Sakura cannot fight anything for similar points thus cannot either impact much by scenario actions because it´s suicide to approach the objectives even if it sucks an action or two. The models they suck actions from cost the same! Thus no gain and I find myself building lists only with models able to fight. Which is a little sad.

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They have  2 melee dice don't they? That still gives them equal ability to fight kairai, bakemono, peasants, most other shugenga, pretty much anything in the cult, and only 1 dice less than 90% of what's left, not every model can have a ms of 4, I ring the shisai always perform admirably in melee, better than kato or wu zang, my nearest equivalents, I suppose I think that way because I learnt to play with cult and wave, and still thing MS 3 is very good, and very rare for me! I'm used to MS 2 being my mainstay, so hearing it called poor surprises me;)

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2 dice is great, in addition to other things they can do. 3 dice is standard for warriors. and 4 for Elite.

The problem is that the latest models are breaking the balance of the game, giving to much 4 dice models for low cost. (Also with Martial Progress one of the better traits of the game).

If you see the cult or the Wave, they dont have any model with 4 dice, and most of the warband is 2 dice. And still they are 2 great factions with too many things to do, very tricky and funny and competitive.

The temple have Monks, that have 4 dice, but they need the extra dice and use the synergy with their supports. The Kami are really badass and useful, as are the peasants! 

The problem, again, is that the prefacture and ito clan have powerful low cost warriors that outshines the supports and the other useful models with 2 dices.

Kazuhiko is awesome 4rice model. You can tire people, defend your shisai, give Ki with channel, capture objectives... and still has 2 dice with first strike and poison. Compare him to other 4 rice models. He is fantastic, if you know how to use him.

The problem, again, is that "support" models are more difficult to use than the 4 dice-martial progress-armored-warriors (go ahead and kill, if they are not warriors its easier) but these supports are indeed better than the warriors (still needed) if properly used.

Kazuhiko, a 4 rice support, can tire a Samurai like Hagane (11 rice) and being in BtB, 2 dices in deffense, he can negating that model for the enemy until she dissengages. Add one of your warriors and now is outnumbered, and if you use the facing of the model when in BtB wisely (they look to each other front) , even obtain a surprise attack. All with a "expendable" 4 rice model that maybe dont die and can give you the game.

Ayako is badass model. Can drain Ki!!! and without range limit can tire people and stun them!! One tired model becomes exhausted and stuned. If that is not usefull... and still has 2 dice, movement 5, channel, blood of orochi etc

Are models like Kenzo or Eiji and genji that ruin the game with no brain. But the "supports" are the essence of the game you only need to learn to play them. Try playing with Savage Wave where all is 2 dice and the expensive warriors are 3 dice (1 dice when exhausted outnumbered) and you will learn a lot.

 

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Heh, the number of times I´ve read the "play better" argument directed to issues of play balance in different games are unnumberable. Nah, don´t agree, but never mind. Kahime is incoming and then Ito will become very fearsome I imagine. A poisoned shooter that´s over medium size? Yes please laugh

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The ito are already fearsome, she will just give them more options:)

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Satoshi  

MAsunagi

Kaihimi

SAkura

Chiyo

2x Bushi

Ok so I ran this a few times yesterday and really enjoyed it. Good play for scenario and combo of kaihimi range an MAsunagi melee out put it ticks nicely. Against Ryu and 2 savage wave list it did well. 

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Try out getting all the Cleave models:

Model Cost
Masunagi 9
Kaihime 9
Naoko 8
Sakura 7
Takeji 7
Temple Bushi 5
Temple Bushi 5

Of all the lists I've tried, I still find the shisai/debuff one the most fun.  It's just so incredibly mobile and generally everyone does something every turn, no one gets wasted standing around waving swords aimlessly for the most part.  If the Jade Mamba Guard have Bodyguard (plzplzplzplzplzplzplzplz) and cost 6 (they should, Takeji is 7) then I can swap out Chiyo to get some Bodyguard loving.

It always goes to tiebreakers.

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Raynzy
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Hmm i like this list alot and i will try it out, i was thinking about trying Naoka today, i enjoy the flexibilty of her play style and ive always found that she really ki efficient 

Raynzy
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Ret palmer played your list a few times and i like it, couple things i thought were sakura, doesnt really do anything apart from channel to kaihimi, so with this in mind i made a couple of changes 

 

Masunagi 9

Kaihimi 9

Naoka 8

Kenzo 10 

2 bushi 10

Kazuhiko 4 

Kazuhiko focus's turn one and then the can usually keep kahimi topped off so she can afford to shoot twice every turn 

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Sakura only needs to hand out 1 Ki a turn to Kaihime if you really feel you want to shoot all the time.  Even with the channeling you can spam out 1 Ki Psychic Venoms, for the most part it's a pretty reliable 1 damage, which is better than a lot of melee exchanges.  Also, I play against a lot of Spirit Block (hello Cult) so I don't think I'd ever leave home without at least 1 shisai.

I do wonder if other people get decent mileage out of their shisai.  I generally have good success with them (even when people tech their lists to have Iron Mind on every model (DAVE!)) and find I'm a little unhappy when I'm not fielding both.

It always goes to tiebreakers.

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What peoples list looking like now post some releases and Special cards? I´m at a Shock and Awe list which is very agressive in the early part through Powerful Attacks and Blood on the Samurai, aiming to kill 1, hopefully 2 enemies T2 to get advantage in numbers. Score next and then finally take over some chump T4+ for the final kill/scoring. This pertains most to Ruy, Ito, Silvermoon and Temple.

vs Wave the goal is to contain the Onis with defending Bushis and kill as many Bakes as possible by T2-3.

vs Cult it depends as it´s so mutable, but Bushis and Hitoshi contain any Kairais while Naoko and Kenzo races for their major support (Kato/Ikiryo). The Samurais main goal is Nezumi.

*** 50 Rice

-Dark Secrets 2

Kenzo Ito

Masunagi Ito

Naoko

Jade Mamba Guard

Hitoshi

2x Temple Bushi

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A hard hitting list that looks very similar to our local ito list, don't expect kenzo to reach Ikiryo unscathed (or at all) but other than Thatit is a solid list, sharp work:p I find it hard to write a list without masunagi these says!

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Greeny wrote:

A hard hitting list that looks very similar to our local ito list, don't expect kenzo to reach Ikiryo unscathed (or at all) 

That´s what Naoko is for. Blind Geishas cannot target anything we always say in the Ito warcamp. And worse case scenario, well that´s what Jade Mambas are for right? Give it up for the cause ms unnnamed Ashigaru wink

That´s theory at least. As it goes, no plan survives meeting the battlefield.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Masunagi is indeed an insane killer, who got even better post Errata!

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Hey, naoko is a great anti Ikiryo model, just enough wounds to survive a 6Ki blast (most of the time) and then a lucky blind shot and she's done:p

Raynzy
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Blinding ikiryo and then shooting her straight after is brilliant two turns of being blind WOOP!!!!

Ret-Kenton
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But you have to ensure that there's nothing that can hop in the way of the shot . . . silly cult player ;-)

The Gaki may just be the single greatest creation of Master T.

Raynzy
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this is true but feating for elusive does give you the ability to get into a position where they dont have the option to dodge the shot

Ret-MattT
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Post-SmogCon I re-evaluated my whole warband strategy. Instead of focusing on fighting as efficient as ever, scoring through killing them before they can, resulting in overwhelming numbers, I believe Ret-LEJs approach of speed over brawn and building Warbands for completing scenarios is better. Simply put, if you can score faster than the opponent why ever waste time fighting them which is much chancier? Not to mention the most compelling argument: Ret-LEJ won it all!

Ito can be extremely fast as we have Satoshi who can Order 3 Ashigaru, meaning they get 3 actions Turn 1. That translates into e.g. influencing all 3 objectives in The Idols. The slight problem is it costs 3 Ki, thus he needs 1 more Ki. At the moment this means Sakura or Ayoko who can Channel that one Ki to him. Ayoko seems the obvious choice for her disruptive abilities. As Naoko does the similar thing and I´m loathe to drop the best Samurai in the game: Kenzo, she gets the boot.

So that ends up my Post-SmogCon Ito at:

Kenzo Ito

Ayoko Ito

Satoshi

Jade Mamba Guard

Hitoshi

2x Temple Bushi

The Eagle shares the nest. The Dragon burns it. Join the Black Eagle and crush the usurpers!

Greeny
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now you're thinking:) My cult have no problem vs fighty Ito or Prefecture, but a tricksy list like that? game on:)

Malhorme
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Hey guys. You should take a look at pref combos around fujitaka (channel), hanso (move it, order) and fuc...g first strike, push attacks... It's the same, but worse (as ashigarus can make sure they r not engaged...

Ret-A_Palmer
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To avoid having Satoshi stuck on your table edge after using turn 1 "Battle Stations" and an Order action, give him an Elixir of Vigor.

It always goes to tiebreakers.

The Jumo Ring - a Bushido Blog

GCT Master T
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So you saying the key in bushido is building lists to accomplish scenarios with a solid plan? Seems good :)

"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."

Ret-MattT
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It´s not that simple smileyExperience says that all miniature games claims that you should "play on the scenario", but in reality the better plan is to kill everything asap and then their ability to get scenario points vanish. I´ve played a dozen such games at least.

Bushido claims the same, but actually delivers. That´s the shocker which Ret-LEJ illustrated well and (at least) I hadn´t noticed so explicitly before.

That said there´s merit in the "fight" plan. It delays scoring as you concentrate on getting a tactical advantage. The "scenario" plan bets on scoring first and sacrifices fighting ability. Yet, as the game revolves around scoring it´s probably a better plan to aim for points first over blood.

The Eagle shares the nest. The Dragon burns it. Join the Black Eagle and crush the usurpers!

GCT Master Enos
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You do need to have the ability to engage and fight the opponent.  I haven't tried building all out for scenario (I.e. ignoring the opponent and just going for points) but I doubt it would work.

Luckily Ito are blessed with Masunagi who is probably the fighting-est model out.  Its kind of useful to have a model who's sole purpose is to be the best offensive fighter there is and know his job isn't to turn idols or pray but to beat face.  
I guess the opposite is true though, if an opponent can force you to use a model like that for scenario, each activation he uses is kind of wasted as he isn't just murdering some poor fool.

 

Grand Master of Bushido (Smog Con '14)

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